[52Blox]

ChotooMotoo, on 14 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

what path that is continues to be debated, has led to wars of Muslims killing other Muslims where both sides think they are the rightly guided interpretation, and even now Muslims are killed nearly every day for their supposed misguidance by other Muslims.

Again everything that has happened and continues to happen is the will of the Allah SWT. He is Al-Adl, the Most Just. He know what you know not. Every injustice that occurs on this earth will ultimately be rectified on the Day of Judgement. Allah SWT has already written the script and know how its going to play out. Yes its full of wars, violence, and innocent lives being lost. But because He is Al-Adl, everything He wills is ultimately for the best and all injustices will be rectified on when the angels take their pens off your record. A true Muslim is strong be strong enough to accept that fact. And btw just because someone calls themself "Muslim" or is born to Muslim parents, does not necessarily make that person Muslim. You and I both know that. Again this hopeless, defeatist attitude is def. more prevalent amongst certain demographcis of the Muslim population than others. You either roll with the punches or you get KO'd.

Muhammad SAW said: Things can be judged only by their end or final conclusion. One of the basic beliefs of Islam is accepting the Qadr or will of Allah SWT, regardless of what that brings in this temporary life.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Again this hopeless, defeatist attitude is def. more prevalent amongst certain demographcis of the Muslim population than others.

You make me laugh. I can't wait till a moderator kicks you out for these statements. You better bet that I'm going to be the one bothering them until they do. Thats a promise, little boy

Just the way you talk to me and Chotoo, both white converts, belittling us and attributing our shortcoming to our race makes me question how much about Islam you really know.

[52Blox]

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Wow, I'm "baby girl" and Jiggy is "baby boy"? Looks like someone's feeling a little threatened and needs to call us sexualised names in order to feel like he's making a good argument.

Hopefully soon, Box, you can learn to debate effectively and maturely like an adult should. The minute you called me "baby girl" and attributed certain negative characteristics on members of my racial group, I skipped right over you and went to Chotoos post. That's usually what happens when you begin your entire argument with an insult. Learn not to do that, and perhaps you can be more effective on the boards.

Leave your racism at the door where it belongs, and hopefully a moderator wont kick you out of here for it. None of us here feel the need to use race as a weapon against another person's arguments. Why you feel that need is pretty sad to me. Usually it's what people do when they don't have anything stronger to use, so they resort to the lowest forms of insult. Congratulations.

Threatened? by what LOL. A girl that does not have the courage to express her cliche controversial views on a more active, populated Islamic forum for fear of easily being picked apart and humiliated by "Traditionalist Muslims"; so she hangs around on a less active forum and bullies those who post "Traditional views" with a couple others who share her views. I don't believe you for a minute btw when you say you didn't read my post. I think you read it, realized you couldn't respond to me rationally, and had a little bit of an emo overdose. It's fine though I still have more points to address so I'm going to keep responding even if you want to pretend like you're not reading LOL. A lot more people read these threads then post here, so InshAllah they can benefit from my responses. There is a lot of Barakah in correcting misguidance so Imma keep up and maybe when you rehab and calm down you can stop pretending not to read my post and maybe just maybe generate a rational response LOL. Btw, when did I ever say anything about Jiggy?

[BaronChairman]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

lol only one beating around bushes is you little boy!! Last I checked you started this thread was started to moan about how "Islam is material" based on your little cliffnotes interpretation of a religion that has over 1400 of detailed scholarship. The point was simply raised about the importance understanding the language in which the entire foundation and scholarship of the religion is based. You cannot be a Muslim without reciting Classical Arabic 5x a day in your prayers. There is no debate about that and never will be. The only one bringing up other religious scriptures is you which is pretty random because you starting this thread to speicifically throw a tantrum about how "Islam is material" lol



Seriously instead of thinking of your own lines you just gonna play paulie wanna cracker with me and parrot my words. I guess you liberal white atheiests are just too slick and witty for us colorful savages lol. I had no idea I needed language statistics to back up my claim about "the importance of learning Classical Arabic to understand Islam". Btw in what year will I instantly just start speaking in Mandarin according to your stats LOL? Btw when I think of where Christopher Hitchens is today a great big, white smile comes across my face, not gonna lie!! I just hope there isn't any "white privelege" where he is because I don't think his kind are in the minority over there. I could be wrong though!!!

No, the way it happened was that you waltzed in and decided to completely ignore my original subject matter, and in that effort, have chosen to concentrate on linguistic points in order to distract me from the larger subject at hand. Yes, I pointed out that Islam - as well as other religions proclaiming ultimate material fulfillment - are material because they use the carrot dangling at the end of the fishing line in order to keep their subjects thinking and acting in a particular way. No rewards of perhaps creating a better, more just world, no wisdom to be attained, just pure, simple, lemming-like obedience. And in your impressive first paragraph here, you're clearly hoping I had forgotten the original subject, because you're still emphasizing your ridiculous little rant about language instead of trying to steer back onto the subject matter of the thread.

Yeah, I came in to whine baed on cliff notes, but maybe you haven't read the Quran, because that's exactly where my little cliff notes are coming from. The Quran portrays your religion as exceedingly material, and while you apparently are smart enough to realize that there is 1400 years of scholarship behind it, you've chosen not to use any of it in either your defense of Islam not being material or your defense of the use of Arabic. You also tried to dismiss actual statistics based on actual scholarship as outdated, and here we have you taking the last resort of the argumentatively beaten man: Bigoted name-calling based in assumptions you automatically made about my character. So yes, I guess I AM too slick and witty for you colorful savages. Polly wanna cracker? You may follow it once I throw it off the cliff you're standing by, lemming.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Threatened? by what LOL. A girl that does not have the courage to express her cliche controversial views on a more active, populated Islamic forum for fear of easily being picked apart and humiliated by "Traditionalist Muslims"; so she hangs around on a less active forum and bullies those who post "Traditional views" with a couple others who share her views. I don't believe you for a minute btw when you say you didn't read my post. I think you read it, realized you couldn't respond to me rationally, and had a little bit of an emo overdose. It's fine though I still have more points to address so I'm going to keep responding even if you want to pretend like you're not reading LOL. A lot more people read these threads then post here, so InshAllah they can benefit from my responses. There is a lot of Barakah in correcting misguidance so Imma keep up and maybe when you rehab you can't stop pretending not to read my post and maybe just maybe generate a rational response LOL.

Are the members of those boards a lot like you? I don't have time for racist people who preach about Islam while attacking other Muslims. Thank God the majority of Muslims that I've met in the past few years since converting haven't been like you or I might have left Islam as fast as possible. I just feel bad for the new Muslims who might be driven away from the entire religion because of attitudes like yours.

I don't think you realize how detrimental to the Ummah your attitude really is. You spend all your time preaching to us, belittling us, slamming our race, and then making fun of us if we don't agree with you. Disgusting. I just find it so funny that you still think you're the face of a traditional Muslim on here after you've displayed nothing but completely unIslamic characteristics with your bad attitude.

[BaronChairman]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Threatened? by what LOL. A girl that does not have the courage to express her cliche controversial views on a more active, populated Islamic forum for fear of easily being picked apart and humiliated by "Traditionalist Muslims"; so she hangs around on a less active forum and bullies those who post "Traditional views" with a couple others who share her views. I don't believe you for a minute btw when you say you didn't read my post. I think you read it, realized you couldn't respond to me rationally, and had a little bit of an emo overdose. It's fine though I still have more points to address so I'm going to keep responding even if you want to pretend like you're not reading LOL. A lot more people read these threads then post here, so InshAllah they can benefit from my responses. There is a lot of Barakah in correcting misguidance so Imma keep up and maybe when you rehab you can't stop pretending not to read my post and maybe just maybe generate a rational response LOL.

I think they WILL benefit. They'll know you're both a racist and a sexist. Then they'll force you into being a shutin.

[ChotooMotoo]

roll with the punches? What does that even mean? So I'm to submit to another person interpretation of the "right" version of Islam or else? Is there no concept of agree to disagree and leave it to Allah (swt) to judge? Can I not allow Errin to have her beliefs, her culture, I keep my beliefs and my culture (which are not the same thing despite the fact that we share a common skin color more or less) and still pray next to her in the Masjid? Your post makes no sense.

[52Blox]

Anyways let's keep going:

Quote

I don't agree with you. Again, you are marginalizing the majority of the rest of the world and making heaven a clubhouse for only traditional Muslims or Muslims who understand Classical Arabic. I agree that classical Arabic is good to learn and much of the meaning behind the Qur'an is lost without knowledge of the language, but I DONT agree that heaven is only for traditional and classically learned Muslims. I believe that God is merciful and since all people on the entire planet are His creation (and not everyone on the planet has the resources to learn classical Arabic or even get a copy of Qur'an or even hear about the Qur'an at all), then God has made accomodations for them. That is why He says in the Qur'an that all people were sent a Prophet. You are following ONE of Gods' MANY Prophets. You have no right to say who will or will not be in heaven and hell. That's not your job and it's not good for you to thrive in that mindset and start imagining that it is your job. Please understand that the world is a huge place and Islam, while it is the right religion, does not exist everywhere. Since it doesnt, accomodations have been made. God did not only create Muslims and then left the rest of humanity floating around without being accounted for. They are accounted for in God's own way and it's only His business to know how.

It's also important to undersatnd that the more you study world religion, the more you realize how similar they all are. I've studied Eastern and traditional Western religions my entire life and the only real difference that I have found is that Abrahamic followers are always preoccupied with telling people who will and will not be burning in hell. I beileve that a whole more more people than just Muslims will be with us in heaven. There are people who have never heard of Islam or aren't able to follow Islam. There are peopel who lived in a time when Judaism, Chrsitianity and Islam were completely inaccessible to their region (think Celtic Druids, think Native American shamans, etc.) and they have to be accounted for. They are God's people too. You cannot take ONE single religion, say it works for the entire world and only followers of that one single religion will be with us in Heaven. Where the hell do you think everyone else will be? Do you think God is THAT exclusive that he would force all other people in hell when they never even got the chance to learn about Islam at all? That's why the verse that says that he sent a prophet to everyone is SO IMPORTANT yet nobody ever focuses on it. It means that there are prophets in every single nation and all of them were sent to them by Allah. Do you think they hadned them the Qur'an? Probably not. It's not your right to say who will and will not be in heaven. You aren't God.

3. In addition to being the Seal of all Prophets who was sent to ALL MANKIND with a Shariah that abrogated all others the main thing that seperates Muhammad SAW from his noble predecessors was that he was the ONLY Prophet that succeeded in bringing an entire nation of people to Islam prior to his death. Isa AS had few followers when Allah SWT raised him up, it was only after his message was distorted by Romans that Xtianity became a dominant force. Musa AS guided the Hebrews out of Egypt but was left to wander the desert and the Hebrews reverted back to their corrupt ways shortly after being delivered from slavery; even killing several of their Prophets along the way. The 3 Arab Prophets who came before Muhammad SAW; Hud, Salih, and Shuaib also had few followers and were threatened by the Ad, Thamud, and people of Madyan. Same goes for all the other Prophets who were chastised by the majority and were only able to guide a small minority. Whether these Prophet were in Africa, the Americas, Europe, the fact is they were all either outright rejected if not killed by the people they were sent to guide; or their message was soon forgotted as the native peoples of these lands soon after returned to paganism which is hated by Allah SWT. This is why Allah SWT left these people in misguidance just like how he left the Arabs prior to the advent of Muhammad SAW. Muhammad SAW is the only Prophet who was able to guide an entire nation to Islam and keep them upon that path after his death. The Arabs were the only nation that was able to successfully retain Islam after the death of their Prophet; all other nations failed at this

And this is why the Arab culture of Muhammad SAW is cherished in Islam. Obviously the Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab when it comes to piety and good action, we all know this because it has been abundantly verified that Muhammad SAW stated this. Being Arab will not give you an advantage of the Day of Judgement. All that would be dishonest to deny the special place the Arab nation holds as being the primary teachers of this religion and furthermore the special place the Arabic language has as being the language of the Holy Qu'ran. The only book of God that has not been altered in the slightest. As I said before there is a reason why regardless of what your mother tongue is; you Salaat or daily prayer WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED if not recited in Arabic. Although Isa AS is of Jewish or Hebrew descent, when returns it will be in the city of Damascus which is an Arab city.

So as I said before this simply means the Classical Arab language is superior to all others and those Arabs who can trace their lineage to Muhammad SAW or his companions have a superior linage that all others. This is something non-Arabs, who are the vast majority of this Ummah, have accepted and cherished for over 1400 years. It is something that I as a non-Arab have absolutely no problem accepting either, nor do the vast majority of Muslims today (85% of whom are not Arab). Those who cannot accept this are an irrelevant minority, have always been an irrelevant minority, and InshAllah this weak viewpoint will no longer exist when Isa Ibn Maryam returns.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

The Arabs were the only nation that was able to successfully retain Islam after the death of their Prophet; all other nations failed at this

This is something non-Arabs, who are the vast majority of this Ummah, have accepted and cherished for over 1400 years. It is something that I as a non-Arab have absolutely no problem accepting either, nor do the vast majority of Muslims today (85% of whom are not Arab). Those who cannot accept this are an irrelevant minority, have always been an irrelevant minority, and InshAllah this weak viewpoint will no longer exist when Isa Ibn Maryam returns.

I don't believe this. I believe that Arabs have completely abused Islam and run their countries based off of an extremely skewed version of Islam. I'm constantly left disappointed at the misbehaving that goes on in Arab countries and Arab communities, all in the name of "Islam". When Muhammad *saws* died, the religion was left in the hands of other men and it instantly became flawed. Right away, Muslims killed each other and split over disagreements.

And no person is "irrelevant" just because they disagree with you. I'm so beyond sick of this attitude.

[EirinnMoChroi]

ChotooMotoo, on 14 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

despite the fact that we share a common skin color more or less)

You're pale and freckley too!?

I wish you could pray next to me in the masjid <3

[52Blox]

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Are the members of those boards a lot like you? I don't have time for racist people who preach about Islam while attacking other Muslims. Thank God the majority of Muslims that I've met in the past few years since converting haven't been like you or I might have left Islam as fast as possible. I just feel bad for the new Muslims who might be driven away from the entire religion because of attitudes like yours.

I don't think you realize how detrimental to the Ummah your attitude really is. You spend all your time preaching to us, belittling us, slamming our race, and then making fun of us if we don't agree with you. Disgusting. I just find it so funny that you still think you're the face of a traditional Muslim on here after you've displayed nothing but completely unIslamic characteristics with your bad attitude.

So now I gave you points 1,2, and 3 just above. I will be eagerly awaiting your responses to each one. As far as the Ummah goes, Alhmadullilah I'm not worried whatever happens is the will of Allah SWT and He is Al-Adl. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. Again that's just Islam 101 for you again. So if someone's faith is so weak and shaky that they lost it debating on the internet, they had no business being Muslim in the first place. It's not like you're doing us a favor by becoming Muslim LOL, someone who is weak in their faith and doesn't seek guidance is only hurting the Ummah not helpig it. Alhamdullilah We already have plenty of sincere, dedicated, real white reverts at our masjids and I would die for those brothers. They're sincere about the deen and know that it's not broke and don't need to be fixed. We don't need to bring in fake ones that want to play colonizer. I think most Muslims would agree that these Progressive Muslims who want to sell-out our faith to please the oppressors and destroy Islam from within are FAR MORE detrimental to the faith than me. And for the record numbers show that Muslim Reverts with Progressive idead are FAR MORE LIKELY to eventually leave Islam. You may not like it but those are numbers. Like I said I would die for the sincere White Reverts whom I have myself helped guide to Islam. But the word I care about is "sincere" not "white".

Quote

I think they WILL benefit. They'll know you're both a racist and a sexist. Then they'll force you into being a shutin.

Sorry buddy but stats show you're far more likely to hold racist views than me. Men lie, Women lie, but numbers don't lie. I love my White brothers and Sisters who are genuine in this Deen and they know it. So I got nothing to prove to the likes of you or the 3-4 people that may dislike me for telling it like it is.

Quote

roll with the punches? What does that even mean? So I'm to submit to another person interpretation of the "right" version of Islam or else? Is there no concept of agree to disagree and leave it to Allah (swt) to judge? Can I not allow Errin to have her beliefs, her culture, I keep my beliefs and my culture (which are not the same thing despite the fact that we share a common skin color more or less) and still pray next to her in the Masjid? Your post makes no sense.

Again what didn't make sense: Try again

Everything that has happened and continues to happen is the will of the Allah SWT. He is Al-Adl, the Most Just. He know what you know not. Every injustice that occurs on this earth will ultimately be rectified on the Day of Judgement. Allah SWT has already written the script and know how its going to play out. Yes its full of wars, violence, and innocent lives being lost. But because He is Al-Adl, everything He wills is ultimately for the best and all injustices will be rectified on when the angels take their pens off your record. A true Muslim is strong be strong enough to accept that fact. And btw just because someone calls themself "Muslim" or is born to Muslim parents, does not necessarily make that person Muslim. You and I both know that. Again this hopeless, defeatist attitude is def. more prevalent amongst certain demographcis of the Muslim population than others. You either roll with the punches or you get KO'd.

Muhammad SAW said: Things can be judged only by their end or final conclusion. One of the basic beliefs of Islam is accepting the Qadr or will of Allah SWT, regardless of what that brings in this temporary life.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

So now I gave you points 1,2, and 3 just above. I will be eagerly awaiting your responses to each one.

You go right ahead and keep on waiting. Why don't you hold your breath as you wait That will be fun.

Quote

Sorry buddy but stats show you're far more likely to hold racist views than me. Men lie, Women lie, but numbers don't lie. I love my White brothers and Sisters who are genuine in this Deen and they know it. So I got nothing to prove to the likes of you or the 3-4 people that may dislike me for telling it like it is.

statistics show what? That he's white and is more likely to be a racist? Are you so stupid that you cant even see that you saying that IS RACISM? It's so freaking blatant. I don't understand how you can be so downright racist and not even see it.

[ChotooMotoo]

Arabic language and Arabic culture, as they relate to Islam, are two completely different things. Arabic culture is not superior to any other culture. Arabic Language is not superior to any other language, except in one way only, that it was the language that Muhammad (saw) happened to speak, and therefore is the language of the Quran. Had Muhammad (saw) been Chinese we would say the same thing about Mandarin, or Japanese, or Maylay etc etc etc. At the end of the day it's just a language, just another language among many. It has aspects that make it very beautiful, no doubt, but it's still just a language. We say our prayers in Arabic not because Arabic is superior but because things get lost in translation. Prayer is such a special thing, meanings need to be precise and ritual prayer is a ritual, so we say it in Arabic to exactly preserve the meanings of the words, which meanings would be ever so slightly lost or modified if we translated them and said them in any other language. Any other prayer you say (dua) that is not your ritual daily prayer (salat) can be said in the language of your choosing. Any time you need to speak with Allah (swt) to express your despair, convey your thanks, you can do that in the language of your choosing. You are not confined to Arabic alone. If you do not speak Arabic, you will not be able to appropriately convey your feelings to Allah (swt) if you are restricted to making dua in Arabic alone. I have never had a single scholar, never read in any book that the only dua you can ever make for any purpose have to be in Arabic or that Arabic is a superior language. That's aryan nation talk.

Islam is a universal religion, it is not restricted only to those who speak Arabic. This has been known and understood since the time of Prophet Muhammad who sent his emissaries beyond Arab lands. Even today's Arabs don't understand ancient classical Arabic, it's a different language than on the street talking to yo mamma Arabic. Does that mean that they are also cut off from the Quran and Islam? Of course not. It's also very useless to recite the Quran in Arabic alone without reading also it's translation and commentary to gain a full understanding. Simple recitation of words you don't understand may give you some small reward for recitation, but it does not bring you deeper understanding, it will not help reform you as a person and help you understand why you should live Islam in your daily life beyond saying your 5 daily prayers. There is a lot more, or there can be a lot more, to being a Muslim than just the bare minimum of saying prayers in a language you don't understand. Learning classical Arabic... this is not necessary, may be completely unattainable for many, and may not even serve that purpose. If we say you HAVE to learn classical Arabic and that's the only way... well there are a lot of people who can never get there, so you are cutting the entire religion off from those people. That's not acceptable. A second language is almost never going to be as fluent for you, as heart felt for you, as your native tongue, so learning classical Arabic still won't solve all the issues. This is why the Quran is translated (with commentary) into so many languages, and we should support and promote the reading of the Quran in peoples native language to give them a greater understanding of the message of Islam.

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

You're pale and freckley too!?

I wish you could pray next to me in the masjid <3

Not so much on the freckled side, but plenty pale. You're probably a tad whiter.

[52Blox]

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

You make me laugh. I can't wait till a moderator kicks you out for these statements. You better bet that I'm going to be the one bothering them until they do. Thats a promise, little boy

Just the way you talk to me and Chotoo, both white converts, belittling us and attributing our shortcoming to our race makes me question how much about Islam you really know.

As I said men lie, women lie, but numbers don't lie. And that's all I gave you. Statistically White Reverts are more likely to hold controversial views that have no place in this religion. Statistically they're more likely to leave the faith that reverts of other races. You can plays the cliche racist label with me all you want, but I know sincere White Muslims, REAL White Muslims who would legit give their lives for me and vice versa. White Reverts who have accepted Islam WITH ME AS A WITNESS. So yes your opinion would be irrelevant in that regard. The reason I brought it up is because you seem to enjoy playing that controversial white revert that wants to colonize the religion or threaten to leave if you don't get your way. As if you're doing us a favor or something,. And I'm letting you know been there, done that. You're literally a dime a dozen in our communities. I know Brothers have been dealing with Sisters like you since the late 70's. Going to Islamic conferences just so they can spout off about how "we oppress women", "we don't care about the environment", "we need to re-interpret the Qur'an" And trust me a large percentage of these people will either be gone in a few years or they will cling to some tiny little Progressive Muslim circle. That's why I feel the need to call out these personalities to see where they really at. I knew going in you were going to have a little emo rant, play the "racist" label and threaten me with the ban-hammer. But so be it. Point is I see ignorance and misguidance on an Islamic forum. As a Muslim I have an obligation to correct that ignorance. Whatever happens after that is up to Allah SWT.

Quote

don't believe this. I believe that Arabs have completely abused Islam and run their countries based off of an extremely skewed version of Islam. And what do you mean Arabs have successfully retained Islam after Muhammad (saws) died? Right after he died, Muslims fought and killed each other over disagreements. To say that Arabs still retain a perfect version of Islam is completely bogus.

And no person is "irrelevant" just because they disagree with you. I'm so beyond sick of this attitude.

You cannot say your salaat in any other language than Arabic, you would not know what Islam is if it had not been for those Arabs. Any wars and disputes that occured were the will of Allah SWT and Alhamdullilah those wars rooted out many fitnahs that were detrimental to the Ummah. The Muslims with noble intent who died in those wars are in the highest stations of Paradise, those who falsely claimed to be Muslims to create fitnah were defeated. Everything happens for a reason and everything will ultimately be justified on the Day of Judgement because Allah is Al-Adl the Most Just. Accepting the Will of Allah is a central tenet of your faith.

Let me ask, Allah could have sent his LAST MESSENGER, THE SEAL OF HIS PROPHETS, to any nation and to any people. He sent it to the Arabs. Are you questioning Allah SWT choice? Are you suggesting He should have sent him to your Irish ancestors, or my African ancestors. Ask yourself that. Allah SWT knows everything and He is the Best of Planners. Allah SWT chose the Arabs for a reason and we must honor that choice. That doesn't mean they're superior to Non-Arabs but that means we respect His Will and it means we don't whine and complain because history didn't go the way we wanted it to. Seriously Accept the will of Allah, stop complaining, and stop trying to fix Islam because it ain't broken.

[EirinnMoChroi]

ChotooMotoo, on 14 April 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Arabic language and Arabic culture, as they relate to Islam, are two completely different things. Arabic culture is not superior to any other culture. Arabic Language is not superior to any other language, except in one way only, that it was the language that Muhammad (saw) happened to speak, and therefore is the language of the Quran. Had Muhammad (saw) been Chinese we would say the same thing about Mandarin, or Japanese, or Maylay etc etc etc. At the end of the day it's just a language, just another language among many. It has aspects that make it very beautiful, no doubt, but it's still just a language. We say our prayers in Arabic not because Arabic is superior but because things get lost in translation. Prayer is such a special thing, meanings need to be precise and ritual prayer is a ritual, so we say it in Arabic to exactly preserve the meanings of the words, which meanings would be ever so slightly lost or modified if we translated them and said them in any other language. Any other prayer you say (dua) that is not your ritual daily prayer (salat) can be said in the language of your choosing. Any time you need to speak with Allah (swt) to express your despair, convey your thanks, you can do that in the language of your choosing. You are not confined to Arabic alone. If you do not speak Arabic, you will not be able to appropriately convey your feelings to Allah (swt) if you are restricted to making dua in Arabic alone. I have never had a single scholar, never read in any book that the only dua you can ever make for any purpose have to be in Arabic or that Arabic is a superior language. That's aryan nation talk.

Islam is a universal religion, it is not restricted only to those who speak Arabic. This has been known and understood since the time of Prophet Muhammad who sent his emissaries beyond Arab lands. Even today's Arabs don't understand ancient classical Arabic, it's a different language than on the street talking to yo mamma Arabic. Does that mean that they are also cut off from the Quran and Islam? Of course not. It's also very useless to recite the Quran in Arabic alone without reading also it's translation and commentary to gain a full understanding. Simple recitation of words you don't understand may give you some small reward for recitation, but it does not bring you deeper understanding, it will not help reform you as a person and help you understand why you should live Islam in your daily life beyond saying your 5 daily prayers. There is a lot more, or there can be a lot more, to being a Muslim than just the bare minimum of saying prayers in a language you don't understand. Learning classical Arabic... this is not necessary, may be completely unattainable for many, and may not even serve that purpose. If we say you HAVE to learn classical Arabic and that's the only way... well there are a lot of people who can never get there, so you are cutting the entire religion off from those people. That's not acceptable. A second language is almost never going to be as fluent for you, as heart felt for you, as your native tongue, so learning classical Arabic still won't solve all the issues. This is why the Quran is translated (with commentary) into so many languages, and we should support and promote the reading of the Quran in peoples native language to give them a greater understanding of the message of Islam.



Not so much on the freckled side, but plenty pale. You're probably a tad whiter.

Your arguments are awesome, Chotoo.

And I dont know that I'm whiter...my body, yes, but my face seems to be permanently sunburned

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Let me ask, Allah could have sent his LAST MESSENGER, THE SEAL OF HIS PROPHETS, to any nation and to any people. He sent it to the Arabs. Are you questioning Allah SWT choice? Are you suggesting he should have sent him to your Irish ancestors, or my African ancestors. Ask yourself that. Allah SWT knows everything and He is the Best of Planners. Allah SWT chose the Arabs for a reason and we must honor that choice. That doesn't mean they're superior to Non-Arabs but that means we respect His Will and it means we don't whine and complain because history didn't go the way we wanted it to. Seriously Accept the will of Allah, stop complaining, and stop trying to fix Islam because it ain't broken.

Why would I be questioning Allah? I'm questioning YOU and why YOU feel the need to believe that other races are superior to others. Allah sent Muhammad to the Arabs, yes, but that doesn't mean that, by doing so, he's telling all of mankind that Arabs are the best people. If you want to believe that, that's your prerogative, but I do not believe that.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

As I said men lie, women lie, but numbers don't lie. And that's all I gave you. Statistically White Reverts are more likely to hold controversial views that have no place in this religion. Statistically they're more likely to leave the faith that reverts of other races. You can plays the cliche racist label with me all you want, but I know sincere White Muslims, REAL White Muslims who would legit give their lives for me and vice versa.

Oh barf. They would die for you if they are real Muslims? Give me a break.

Id like to see this "factual evidence" that you have that fuels your racist rhetoric. Show me the statistics or shut the hell up.

[52Blox]

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Why would I be questioning Allah? I'm questioning YOU and why YOU feel the need to believe that other races are superior to others. Allah sent Muhammad to the Arabs, yes, but that doesn't mean that, by doing so, he's telling all of mankind that Arabs are the best people. If you want to believe that, that's your prerogative, but I do not believe that.

No one says Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs or any race being superior. Don't put words in people's mouths. We're talking about strictly about language and lineage. I hold this view because it is supported by the vast majority scholars, not because I choose to. You choose not to believe it simply because you don't like it. That's the difference. I can accept parts of Islam I don't necessarily like, you can't. I can accept the will of Allah SWT and that what He wills is ultimately is for the best, you feel the need to complain about the state of Muslims throughout history and today. And I'm still waiting for your response on Muhammad SAW being the Seal of All Prophets and His Shariah abrogating those of all his predecessors.

[EirinnMoChroi]

52Blox, on 14 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I hold this view because it is supported by the vast majority scholars

Show me the source.

And while you're at it, show me the source that states that white reverts are more likely to leave Islam and to hold controversial views. Until then, your words mean nothing.

[ChotooMotoo]

EirinnMoChroi, on 14 April 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Your arguments are awesome, Chotoo.

And I dont know that I'm whiter...my body, yes, but my face seems to be permanently sunburned

I wasn't aware I was arguing.