[Chuck1e]

Hi everyone.

I am about to do an academic project on Islam and the Muhammad crisis and hope you would like to help me by filling out a survey. It will only take a couple of minutes. Just follow the link below.

http://www.kwiksurve...INDHMF_cec1dad0

Thank you, friends!

[Kamasatti]

Chuck1e, on 04 April 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

Hi everyone.

I am about to do an academic project on Islam and the Muhammad crisis and hope you would like to help me by filling out a survey. It will only take a couple of minutes. Just follow the link below.

http://www.kwiksurve...INDHMF_cec1dad0

Thank you, friends!

Some of the questions need to be rephrased, since they falsely assume that being a westerner means not being a Muslim and vice versa.

[BaronChairman]

Kamasatti, on 07 April 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

Some of the questions need to be rephrased, since they falsely assume that being a westerner means not being a Muslim and vice versa.

Dude, I'm pretty sure Chuck here is a spammer.

[roberto]

Kamasatti, on 07 April 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

Some of the questions need to be rephrased, since they falsely assume that being a westerner means not being a Muslim and vice versa.

It depends on what one considers defines a person as westerner.

Since Western culture, structures, laws, attitudes and gender relationships etc are based on the teachings of Christianity; can a Muslim be a Westerner?

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 15 April 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

It depends on what one considers defines a person as westerner.

Since Western culture, structures, laws, attitudes and gender relationships etc are based on the teachings of Christianity; can a Muslim be a Westerner?

A "Westerner", by definition, refers to a person from the "Western World". It has nothing to do with what religion they believe in and practice.

In terms of culture, structure, attitudes, etc., the West is structured on secularism, not Christianity, and the vast majority of its laws are civil, not religious. Furthermore, Christianity teaches doctrines such as the divine right of kings and the total subservience of women to men, which are inconsistent with the western culture. "The West" today is as much of a product of Islam as it is of Christianity.

[roberto]

Kamasatti, on 15 April 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

A "Westerner", by definition, refers to a person from the "Western World". It has nothing to do with what religion they believe in and practice.

In terms of culture, structure, attitudes, etc., the West is structured on secularism, not Christianity, and the vast majority of its laws are civil, not religious. Furthermore, Christianity teaches doctrines such as the divine right of kings and the total subservience of women to men, which are inconsistent with the western culture. "The West" today is as much of a product of Islam as it is of Christianity.

There are many definition of “Westerner”



Western laws have their foundation in Christian values.



Unlike Islam the teachings of the church has developed as understanding has grown, unlike many other religions it is a living thing, it not dead; it has removed the shackles of superstition, and of backward cultures

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 16 April 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

There are many definition of “Westerner”

Yes, and the one I provided, is the standard one.

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Western laws have their foundation in Christian values.

No, they have their foundation in Greco-Roman values, with some Christian and Islamic influence.

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Unlike Islam the teachings of the church has developed as understanding has grown, unlike many other religions it is a living thing, it not dead; it has removed the shackles of superstition, and of backward cultures

The teachings of the church were forced to adapt to the changing times, with new ways of thinking and attitudes coming about from the Greco-Islamic inspired Renaissances. of the 12th and 14th centuries. The teachings of the church have only adapted to the changing times, just like the teachings of all the major world religions have, including Islam.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1302971214' post='430727']

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Yes, and the one I provided, is the standard one.

Not so

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No, they have their foundation in Greco-Roman values, with some Christian and Islamic influence.

Rubbish christianity has dominated developments

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The teachings of the church were forced to adapt to the changing times, with new ways of thinking and attitudes coming about from the Greco-Islamic inspired Renaissances. of the 12th and 14th centuries. The teachings of the church have only adapted to the changing times, just like the teachings of all the major world religions have, including Islam.

Islam free from from backward culture and the belief that the Qur’an is the precise and exact word of god , really!

Your problem is that although you are able to acquire limited knowledge it is biased by your inability to intake anything prohibited by your conditioning, which no doubt took place in your early years. As to understanding, that you lack completely. I suspect that you have never experience European Christian culture or for that matter any culture outside you immediate surroundings. You need to travel, mix and escape from the yoke that prevents you from objective thinking

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 17 April 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

Not so

Quite so.

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Rubbish christianity has dominated developments

Correction; the lack of Christianity has dominated developments.

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Islam free from from backward culture and the belief that the Qur’an is the precise and exact word of god , really!

Like Christianity free from the backward culture of the dark and middle ages that it actually did create, and from the belief that "Jesus" was a resurrected god that died for everyone's sins?

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Your problem is that although you are able to acquire limited knowledge it is biased by your inability to intake anything prohibited by your conditioning, which no doubt took place in your early years. As to understanding, that you lack completely. I suspect that you have never experience European Christian culture or for that matter any culture outside you immediate surroundings. You need to travel, mix and escape from the yoke that prevents you from objective thinking

You are again describing only your own short-comings, not mine, and therefore your advice is worthless and redundant to me. In reality, my understanding far exceeds yours, and as for conditioning, you've been far more conditioned than I could ever hope to be, and all this is obvious from your posts and responses.

If you honestly believe that the teachings of Christianity was the dominating factor in the actual development of modern-day Western Civilization and culture, then you're obviously not very familiar with actual history and, ironically enough, lacking in "objective thinking". Historically, the development of modern-day Western Civilization and culture, actually came about because of the Renaissance, not "the teachings of Christianity". For the first millennium of its existence, Christianity was in fact a hindrance.

[BaronChairman]

roberto, on 16 April 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

Western laws have their foundation in Christian values.

No they don't. There are only two rules in western societies that have a foundation in Judaism/Christianity, and those are the easy ones: Don't kill anyone and don't steal my things, which have always been illegal everywhere.

The main Christian value Jesus taught was to love your neighbor, and on more specific levels he taught people that to truly follow him, you should give up all of your worldly possessions. Somehow a lot of the big-name ministers in the west keep missing this. They're the ones preaching from the megachurches with the floating cameras, gift shops, and plush carpets and are broadcast all over hi-fi.

[Kamasatti]

Blue_Phoenix, on 12 April 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

Dude, I'm pretty sure Chuck here is a spammer.

Yeah, I figured as much. I just wanted to say what I thought needed to be said about the issue.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1303067146' post='430801']

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Correction; the lack of Christianity has dominated developments.

You write with no real knowlege of western values amd what little you have is distorted by false teaching.

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Like Christianity free from the backward culture of the dark and middle ages that it actually did create, and from the belief that "Jesus" was a resurrected god that died for everyone's sins?

Once again you show your ignorance he was not God he was the son of G od, one of the trinity.

Please bear in mind that as indeed correctly I am prohibitive of anything derogative concerning your prophet and god I expect you to follow the same basic restrictions.

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You are again describing only your own short-comings, not mine, and therefore your advice is worthless and redundant to me. In reality, my understanding far exceeds yours, and as for conditioning, you've been far more conditioned than I could ever hope to be, and all this is obvious from your posts and responses.

lol lol lol

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If you honestly believe that the teachings of Christianity was the dominating factor in the actual development of modern-day Western Civilization and culture, then you're obviously not very familiar with actual history and, ironically enough, lacking in "objective thinking". Historically, the development of modern-day Western Civilization and culture, actually came about because of the Renaissance, not "the teachings of Christianity". For the first millennium of its existence, Christianity was in fact a hindrance.

I can assure you I am more than conversant with the development of Christian western cultures, however to get back to the initial point i made , what religion is associated with violence, brutality and backward cultures, just look around the world and tell me what you see

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 21 April 2011 - 05:49 AM, said:

You write with no real knowlege of western values amd what little you have is distorted by false teaching.

I write with more knowledge than you, and what I have said is true.

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Once again you show your ignorance he was not God he was the son of G od, one of the trinity.

Once again you show your poor reading comprehension skills, as I didn't say he was "God", I said that the (Christian) belief was that he was a resurrected god, and by Christians claiming that he was divine, that's exactly what they believe.

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Please bear in mind that as indeed correctly I am prohibitive of anything derogative concerning your prophet and god I expect you to follow the same basic restrictions.

You were the one who brought up the Qur'an. If you're going to continue attacking theological aspects of Islam (ex: that the Qur'an is the word of God), then I'm going to do the same to your Christianity.

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lol lol lol

The fact that you yourself cannot even see it, further underscores that it's true.

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I can assure you I am more than conversant with the development of Christian western cultures,

And I can assure you that Christianity made no contributions to the development contemporary western civilization. Culture is transient, inconsistent, localized and subjective.

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however to get back to the initial point i made , what religion is associated with violence, brutality and backward cultures, just look around the world and tell me what you see

There is no religion associated with it.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1303412870' post='431302']

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I write with more knowledge than you, and what I have said is true.

How sad you are to think that because you keep saying it is true, that you really believe it is

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Once again you show your poor reading comprehension skills, as I didn't say he was "God", I said that the (Christian) belief was that he was a resurrected god, and by Christians claiming that he was divine, that's exactly what they believe.

Not so, he was the Son of God, together with God and the Holy Ghost making up the Trinity. Try a different source from Wikipedia and then stop, think, and you may stop making an utter fool of your self

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You were the one who brought up the Qur'an. If you're going to continue attacking theological aspects of Islam (ex: that the Qur'an is the word of God), then I'm going to do the same to your Christianity.

Okay by all means, but do not attack the Christian God or prophets.

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The fact that you yourself cannot even see it, further underscores that it's true.

Is this stupid comment the best that you can do

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And I can assure you that Christianity made no contributions to the development contemporary western civilization. Culture is transient, inconsistent, localized and subjective.

As someone else said you’re a joke, you throw in a few inconsistent and irrelevant comments and expect to get away with such obvious incorrect and stupid comments such as “I can assure you that Christianity made no contributions to the development contemporary western civilization” yeah sure lol lol lol

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There is no religion associated with it.

Yeah go to these countries and tell them that.

Back to the thread:The guy’s survey questiions were correctly framed, what you did not like was the truth they displayed

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 22 April 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

How sad you are to think that because you keep saying it is true, that you really believe it is

How sad that you cannot see the reality, when it is so apparent to you.

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Not so, he was the Son of God, together with God and the Holy Ghost making up the Trinity.

Which is the same thing as saying he's a god.

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Try a different source from Wikipedia and then stop, think, and you may stop making an utter fool of your self

Well, if you honestly believe that contemporary western culture came from the teachings of Christianity, then you're the only one making a fool of yourself.

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Okay by all means, but do not attack the Christian God or prophets.

If you're going to go after theology, the so am I.

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Is this stupid comment the best that you can do

That question is more appropriately addressed at you.

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As someone else said you’re a joke, you throw in a few inconsistent and irrelevant comments and expect to get away with such obvious incorrect and stupid comments such as “I can assure you that Christianity made no contributions to the development contemporary western civilization” yeah sure lol lol lol

Except such a comment is neither stupid nor incorrect. In reality, it is quite true, and I'll say it again, because it is true: “I can assure you that Christianity made no contributions to the development of contemporary western civilization”

Enlightened concepts, such as "democracy", "human rights", "freedom of religion", etc. do not come from Christianity, and the technological advancement of civilization had no Christian influence, as it was entirely a product of human ingenuity. The only thing Christianity contributed, was its holidays and (as Blue Phoenix alluded to) its morals, and most of those have no legal basis for enforcement.

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Yeah go to these countries and tell them that.

Actually, they should be the ones to say whether it has anything to do with religion. Of course, they don't, as it's almost always a product of culture. If it were based on the religion, then it would be universal to anyone who accepts that religion. Since it isn't, it therefore isn't really based on religion. Influenced, maybe, but not based.

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Back to the thread:The guy’s survey questiions were correctly framed, what you did not like was the truth they displayed

No, they were ignorantly framed, and that display of ignorance is what any objective person would find offensive. It has nothing to do with "the truth" (something you obviously know nothing about), but "opinion". That's why it's a "survey".

There's a very good reason why "Christianity" is not the state religion in western countries.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1303489146' post='431448']

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Which is the same thing as saying he's a god.

That is an utterly stupid and ignorant statement, the Trinity is one of the foundations of Christianity, for God sake improve you research and stop making an idiot of yourself

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If you're going to go after theology, the so am I.

That’s a repeat, perhaps you have forgotten what I wrote. I suggest you go back and read what I posted, or is that you cannot understand the difference between a discussion on theology and the deliberate insulting of a religion;s deity

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Actually, they should be the ones to say whether it has anything to do with religion. Of course, they don't, as it's almost always a product of culture. If it were based on the religion, then it would be universal to anyone who accepts that religion. Since it isn't, it therefore isn't really based on religion. Influenced, maybe, but not based.

Variation of Interpretation and the lack of any controlling authority explains that

However you desperately need to travel you have such little understanding of the world outside the USA and probably not much of that either

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There's a very good reason why "Christianity" is not the state religion in western countries.

Guess you have never heard of the UK, joker

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 23 April 2011 - 05:04 AM, said:

That is an utterly stupid and ignorant statement, the Trinity is one of the foundations of Christianity, for God sake improve you research and stop making an idiot of yourself

I know what the trinity is, and what I've said is essentially true. Either you believe he was divine or you don't. The theological details that are attached to it is besides the point.

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That’s a repeat, perhaps you have forgotten what I wrote. I suggest you go back and read what I posted, or is that you cannot understand the difference between a discussion on theology and the deliberate insulting of a religion;s deity

Your attempt to associate the theological belief that the Qur'an is the precise and exact word of God, as being comparable to backward cultures is an insult, and therefore, I can likewise also say the same about the Christian belief that a divine blood sacrifice is necessary to remove sin.

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Variation of Interpretation and the lack of any controlling authority explains that

Ignorance and prevailing circumstances explain it better.

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However you desperately need to travel you have such little understanding of the world outside the USA and probably not much of that either

You need to travel more than I do.

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Guess you have never heard of the UK, joker

I've been to the UK, troglodyte. And when I say "state religion", I'm not talking about a state that officially recognizes a particular religion, but a theocratic state, where religious rule is enforced.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1303580929' post='431574']

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I know what the trinity is, and what I've said is essentially true. Either you believe he was divine or you don't. The theological details that are attached to it is besides the point.

"essentially" true, so you admit you were wrong, he is the son of God

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Your attempt to associate the theological belief that the Qur'an is the precise and exact word of God, as being comparable to backward cultures is an insult,

You lie, that is not what said

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and therefore, I can likewise also say the same about the Christian belief that a divine blood sacrifice is necessary to remove sin.

By all means say that if you wish, I am not here to defend Christianity, however I object to double standards which it appears is frequently the case with the followers of Islam and apparently with you

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I've been to the UK, troglodyte. And when I say "state religion", I'm not talking about a state that officially recognizes a particular religion, but a theocratic state, where religious rule is enforced.

Ha Ha Joker, once again you wriggle and shift your stance,do you really think that sort of tactic fools the forum

[Kamasatti]

roberto, on 23 April 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

"essentially" true, so you admit you were wrong, he is the son of God

No, as I'm simply saying what I've said before. You are just trying to read what simply isn't there, and playing word games to form an argument.

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You lie, that is not what said

Actually it is:

you said:

Islam free from from backward culture and the belief that the Qur’an is the precise and exact word of god , really!

That's what you said.

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By all means say that if you wish, I am not here to defend Christianity, however I object to double standards which it appears is frequently the case with the followers of Islam and apparently with you

If you object to double standards, then you really should try to avoid practicing them.

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Ha Ha Joker, once again you wriggle and shift your stance,do you really think that sort of tactic fools the forum

My stance has always been the same, and I know what I mean better than you do. It's unfortunate that you've once again resorted to word games.

[roberto]

name='Kamasatti' timestamp='1303635364' post='431635']

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No, as I'm simply saying what I've said before. You are just trying to read what simply isn't there, and playing word games to form an argument.

You fool yourself, you claimed the Jesus was god, when as the trinity clearly states he was the son of god, stop trying to wriggle out of it. Your problem is the shallow nature of you knowledge base whereby you keep having to nip out to read a little more from you favourite source i.e. Wikipedia

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Actually it is:

You lie yet agaim

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That's what you said.

This is what i said :"Islam free from from backward culture and the belief that the Qur’an is the precise and exact word of god , really!


It clearly separates culture from religious belief, and does not make a comparison, but if you what to burn a few flags and effigies be my guest, tell me would that action be a culture response or a religious one.

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If you object to double standards, then you really should try to avoid practicing them.

Examples please

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My stance has always been the same, and I know what I mean better than you do. It's unfortunate that you've once again resorted to word games

Empty words, so typical.

BTW I note that you claim to have visited the UK, were you here long enought to draw benifit, or were you as i supspect just in tranist at at airport lol