[Marvelicious]

Choosing, on 02 March 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

Your points are interesting.
RE: The Ten Commandments ...
I would say these are somewhat arbitrary, representative, etc.
A major reason they were given was to prove to the world that man is totally incapable of satisfying a totally Holy God.
Considering the rest of Scripture, LYING should have been included.
The NT goes so far as to say that all unrepentant/unforgiven liars are doomed to Hell.

Please consider the fact that ...
Almighty God did not fail to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.

Arbitrary? representative? I thought your claim was that the Torah hadn't changed?

Why is it that the Torah isn't even clear what the ten commandments are if you claim that the scribes haven't altered the Torah? Weren't they supposed to have been written onto two rocks by the hand of God and handed to Moses?

If the people of the Old Testament can't even agree on these ten matters how can we accept that the rest of the Torah has been preserved?

[Choosing]

Marvelicious, on 02 March 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

Arbitrary? representative? I thought your claim was that the Torah hadn't changed?
Why is it that the Torah isn't even clear what the ten commandments are if you claim that the scribes haven't altered the Torah? Weren't they supposed to have been written onto two rocks by the hand of God and handed to Moses? If the people of the Old Testament can't even agree on these ten matters how can we accept that the rest of the Torah has been preserved?

My precious brother,
You mis-understand me. There never has been a controversy about what God wrote on the 2 tablets of rock.
I meant there were more than 10 things God COULD have put in The Ten Commandments.
There are not just 10 things that God commands us to do, and not to do.
Personally, I am mystified why "Do not lie" is not one of them.

[Marvelicious]

Choosing, on 02 March 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

My precious brother,
You mis-understand me. There never has been a controversy about what God wrote on the 2 tablets of rock.
I meant there were more than 10 things God COULD have put in The Ten Commandments.
There are not just 10 things that God commands us to do, and not to do.
Personally, I am mystified why "Do not lie" is not one of them.

Please don't call me 'precious'...it's positively creepy.

In this case the Jews, Christians, and others call them the '10 commandments', and not the '100 commandments'.

If as you claim there has never been any controversy over what God wrote on the 2 tablets on rock please explain why the ten commandments in the Samaritan Torah are different from the 10 commandments in the Masoretic Torah.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the benefit of Muslims on this site who are not as familiar with Jewish acceptance that the scribes have indeed throughout the ages changed the Masoretic Torah (MT), this process is known as 'Tikkun Soferim'.

There's an interesting article by Christian scholars who state that this process was far more extensive than has been acknowledged and was designed to propagandize particular views. The MT referred to is 'Masoretic Torah'.

Quote

We think some of the differences between the Great Isaiah Scroll, for example, and the MT of the book of Isaiah, reflect an attempt by the MT scribes to demonstrate that the ancient texts cited in the NT as being fulfilled by Jesus as Israel's true Messiah weren't really fulfilled by him because the MT doesn't read the way the Christians say it does. Our view is that the readings contained in 1QIsa of the DSS demonstrate that the MT scribes created scroll or codex copies that "prove" that their view is correct. I don't fault the Masoretes as being dishonest with the text, since Constantine's anti-Semitic edicts cast the first stone, so to speak, at the Jews.

http://isv.org/catac...kun_soferim.htm

This makes it clear that the scribes throughout history have altered the text for political reasons, and you can find further details of that in "Subversive Scribes and the Solomonic Narrative" by Prof Seibert, a fellow Christian.

If you're going to try to convert us, please begin the debate at the point where your fellow Christians already acknowledge serious problems with textual integrity.

The fact that we have to point out that Christian scholars in academic discussions amongst themselves already accept the weakness of previous strongly held beliefs means that we either assume:

a. you're not as aware of your own religion as you claim or

b. are deliberately trying to sell us something which is no longer accepted by christians in the hope that we won't know better.

[jigglypottamus]

I don't get why this troll chickened out and stopped responding to my posts.

Did the cat get his tongue or what?

[Scarfy]

jigglypottamus, on 03 March 2011 - 02:29 AM, said:

I don't get why this troll chickened out and stopped responding to my posts.

Did the cat get his tongue or what?

what the hell does "exegetical" mean?

[jigglypottamus]

Scarfy, on 03 March 2011 - 03:52 AM, said:

what the hell does "exegetical" mean?

Its a derivative of the word "exegesis" which approximates to the arabiy word tafseer.

[BaronChairman]

The tragedy is that Mr. Choosing there appeared to have a decent grasp of the concept of scriptural context, and was simply cherry-picking his contexts.

It doesn't work like that. Either you take the entire context or you shouldn't bother.

[Choosing]

Kamasatti, on 02 March 2011 - 11:52 AM, said:

"How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."
Other translations are even more clear:
"How can you say, 'We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
Undoubtedly it's still preserved with God, as all of the scriptures are, but the 100% preserved version does not exist in the Bible today.
Some of the actual laws themselves may still exist in the Bible today, relatively unchanged, but that is besides the point, since it has still been tampered with, and therefore, where the Qur'an (which is 100% preserved) and the Bible disagree, the words of the Qur'an take precedence over those of the Bible.

Jeremiah 8:8 reminds me of a verse in the Quran that talks of the scribes writing stuff.
But, even Muslim scholars say it has nothing to do with tahrif of "the Scriptures".
They say it refers to their notes, letters, maybe even books.

The biggest problem is you don't understand that ...
Almighty God did not fail to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.
Please, try to abide by that olde wise saying, "Don't sweat duh small stuff".

[Choosing]

RE: the Related topic in Post #5

Allah refused to heal the Jews of their spiritual blindness (Deut.29:3-4, Isaiah 6:9-10).
Now, does this mean they were not blind originally, but Allah had made them blind?
No. They were originally as all men are: spiritually blind and deaf.
If they had pleased him, then he would have healed them.
This refers to original sin, spiritual death, separation from Allah, spiritual blindness, etc.

God, in fact, promised to heal them in the end times:

Ezekiel 36:
24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land (1948).
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness
and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land (1948);
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations,
nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places
in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God."

This has begun … with the Messianic Jews. But slowly, slowly, let's not rush.
Let's not forget: "with the Lord one day is as 1000 years" (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8)

[Choosing]

Kamasatti,

Concerning your glorious and much heralded Post #6,
I’m taking back your medal because I can easily point out several errors.

Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written
in order to instruct mankind ... and you say He didn’t want to preserve them?

You say “The God of the Bible and the Qur'an is the same”
In the OT, God had to kill Israel’s enemies to preserve them.
In the NT, God’s true nature shines through … a God of unconditional love.
In the Quran, this is not the case at all.
It is always, “Allah loves those who …” and “Allah does NOT love those who …”

God’s NT plan of salvation is obviously totally different than what is in the Quran.

Why would anyone alter the historical stories about Abraham, Moses, etc. in the Torah?
Are any doctrines involved?
I say the Quran has different stories to undermine peoples’ faith in the Torah.

The blood covenants I am talking about are in both OT and NT, but not in Quran:
The shed blood of a sacrifice was used to atone for (cover over) the sins of the people.

Apparently, in Islam (in Quran?) there are 6 exceptions to the command not to lie.
In the NT, there are absolutely no exceptions.

9:5-6 says to kill idolaters (when the sacred months are over) unless they seek asylum with you.

9:123 says to make war on the infidels who dwell around you (fight the disbelievers who are near to you).
Nothing about being in the middle of a war.

These names are used for God in the OT, and also for Jesus in the NT:
Lord, Lord of hosts, Lord of glory, Savior, Redeemer, I AM, Rock, King,
First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End.
Why are none of these names continued on in the Quran?

RE: the TEST to determine if a spirit, angel, etc. is from God or from Satan
1 John 4:
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Explanation:
Everyone knows/believes that a man called Jesus Christ was born (came in the flesh).
This is talking about God being born (coming in the flesh). Hello!
See Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6, etc.

You say “the doctrine of Christianity was neither established, nor taught, by "Jesus", but by Paul.
Without Paul, there would have been no Christianity as it is today.”
This again is hilarious.
Please present one of Paul’s doctrines that is different from that of Jesus.

The Bible stands on its own, requiring no one or nothing to explain it.
Hint: God is not the author of confusion, Satan is.

RE: the Helper/Comforter/Paraclete
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth …
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
… And We (God) will come to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
(John 14:16--26)
The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind".

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Muslims have constantly proven to me that they do not understand this.
I.E. they talk as if their thinking, logic, reasoning, etc. is the same as God's.

Blessings, Choosing to be truthful, not deceptive, etc.
My eternal future depends on it.

[Marvelicious]

Given that you've failed to respond to my post I take it that you now accept that the Masoretic Torah has indeed been changed by scribes throughout history? and that this was in some cases to propagandize certain political views?

Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

You say “The God of the Bible and the Qur'an is the same” In the OT, God had to kill Israel’s enemies to preserve them.

Old testament

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and as*, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

He had to kill babies, not to mention oxen and sheep, to preserve them? Couldn't he just let the babies, oxen, and sheep surrender?

Quote

In the NT, God’s true nature shines through … a God of unconditional love. In the Quran, this is not the case at all. It is always, “Allah loves those who …” and “Allah does NOT love those who …”

New Testament

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

(Jesus) answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.' " [Mark 4:11-12]

"But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin." [Mark 3:29]

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." [Jn 3:36]

"Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He (Jesus)will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty." [Rev. 19:15]

Quote

Why would anyone alter the historical stories about Abraham, Moses, etc. in the Torah? Are any doctrines involved? I say the Quran has different stories to undermine peoples’ faith in the Torah.

And yet I've just shown you evidence that this was a standard practice amongst the scribes, as attested to by the jewish AND christian scholars. Indeed your fellow christian scholars are now claiming that this was done to argue the point that Jesus wasn't the messiah.

I've shown you the links, go and convince your fellow christians before you try and sell us what they aren't buying.

[Kamasatti]

Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

Jeremiah 8:8 reminds me of a verse in the Quran that talks of the scribes writing stuff.
But, even Muslim scholars say it has nothing to do with tahrif of "the Scriptures".
They say it refers to their notes, letters, maybe even books.

Obviously, not every "Muslim scholar" agrees with that, otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue. Like I've said before, if you have an actual verse that explains that it isn't the scripture that's been scribed falsely (not just people's opinions), then please present it. Educated opinions aren't enough.

Quote

The biggest problem is you don't understand that ...
Almighty God did not fail to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.
Please, try to abide by that olde wise saying, "Don't sweat duh small stuff".

What God preserved of the Bible is what is consistent with the Qur'an. What is inconsistent with the Qur'an is what is corrupted, and what is neither consistent nor inconsistent, may or may not be authentic.

Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

RE: the Related topic in Post #5
Allah refused to heal the Jews of their spiritual blindness (Deut.29:3-4, Isaiah 6:9-10).
Now, does this mean they were not blind originally, but Allah had made them blind?
No. They were originally as all men are: spiritually blind and deaf.
If they had pleased him, then he would have healed them.
This refers to original sin, spiritual death, separation from Allah, spiritual blindness, etc.
God, in fact, promised to heal them in the end times:
Ezekiel 36:
24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land (1948).
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness
and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land (1948);
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations,
nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places
in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God."
This has begun … with the Messianic Jews. But slowly, slowly, let's not rush.
Let's not forget: "with the Lord one day is as 1000 years" (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8)

That has nothing to do with the creation of the "State of Israel" in 1948, nor the "End Times". The book of Ezekiel was allegedly composed during the time of Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE, and this prophecy of the return of the children of Israel to Palestine, was fulfilled when that captivity ended in 520-515 BCE. It was, of course, only after this point, that the Torah become a central role in Jewish life, in addition to the emergence of scribes and sages as Jewish leaders, thus fulfilling the rest of that prophecy.

The contemporary "State of Israel" is something else entirely.

Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Kamasatti,
Concerning your glorious and much heralded Post #6,
I’m taking back your medal because I can easily point out several errors.
Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written
in order to instruct mankind ... and you say He didn’t want to preserve them?

That is an opinion based on conjecture, not facts, and one which I have already responded to.

Quote

You say “The God of the Bible and the Qur'an is the same”
In the OT, God had to kill Israel’s enemies to preserve them.
In the NT, God’s true nature shines through … a God of unconditional love.
In the Quran, this is not the case at all.
It is always, “Allah loves those who …” and “Allah does NOT love those who …”

The NT doesn't count, because it is composed of accounts of men, not scripture. The "preservation of Israel" against its enemies is comparable to the preservation of the early Muslim community against their enemies. However, the Israelites' battles were not limited to defense, as it clearly illustrates in the Bible, they engaged in offense as well.

Quote

God’s NT plan of salvation is obviously totally different than what is in the Quran.

That's because the NT isn't from God, while the Qur'an is.

Quote

Why would anyone alter the historical stories about Abraham, Moses, etc. in the Torah?
Are any doctrines involved?
I say the Quran has different stories to undermine peoples’ faith in the Torah.

You can say and think what you want, but given the history of alterations in the OT, it is very much conceivable that they would. The motives they would've had are irrelevant, as the fact of the matter is that is what was done regardless.

Quote

The blood covenants I am talking about are in both OT and NT, but not in Quran:
The shed blood of a sacrifice was used to atone for (cover over) the sins of the people.

As the saying goes, "different strokes for different folks".

Those that were sacrificed were animals (never humans), and this was a practice of their pagan neighbors, which were adopted and Judaicized. In terms of seeking forgiveness for sin, it has always been inferior to prayer. According to the Bible itself, God didn't really care for these blood sacrifices for atonement (Hosea 6:6, Isaiah 1:11, Jeremiah 7:21-22).

The idea of "Jesus" as a "blood sacrifice" for "atonement" in the NT is something completely different, as human sacrifices and animal sacrifices are completely different in the OT.

Quote

Apparently, in Islam (in Quran?) there are 6 exceptions to the command not to lie.
In the NT, there are absolutely no exceptions.

For Paul there are exceptions. In Islam, there may be situations where you are allowed (although discouraged) to lie, but that's it.

Quote

9:5-6 says to kill idolaters (when the sacred months are over) unless they seek asylum with you.
9:123 says to make war on the infidels who dwell around you (fight the disbelievers who are near to you).
Nothing about being in the middle of a war.

In what I quoted, there is ample evidence that it is limited to hostile enemies, as the restrictions and conditions it sets, leave no one else to fight against.

Let us look at Surah 9:5-6 in its textual context:

Qur'an 9:1-10:

"The abrogation of the pact (is hereby being proclaimed) by Allah and His messenger _ the pact you made with (some of) the polytheist (tribes). So, (Oh idolaters)! you may (stay and) move about in the land (in peace) for four months. You should know that you shall definitely not render Allah powerless. Allah is surely going to disgrace you. An announcement for mankind from Allah and His messenger on the great day of Hajj (the pilgrimage): Allah and His messenger are free of any obligation concerning the Polytheists _ (those accepting partners with Allah). It is (Oh Idolaters!) better for you to (desist and) repent. For if you turn away, remember that you are unable to frustrate (and elude the grip of) Allah. So, warn the unbelievers of a painful punishment! Except for those polytheist with whom you entered into a pact, and who neither violated any of its conditions, nor aided others against you. Honor (all aspects of) the pact made with them, for the duration of its term. Indeed, Allah loves those who are pious. After the sacred months _ (the grace period of four months) _ have expired, slay them wherever you find them. Seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them at all possible places. But if they repent, establish ‘salat’, and pay the ‘zakat’, then let them go their way. Of course, Allah is the most Forgiving and the most Merciful. If any of the idolaters asks you for an asylum, give him refuge till he hears the word of Allah _ (the Qur’an). After that, escort him to a safe place. That, because they are a people who do not know. How can there exist an obligation (of the pact) upon Allah and His messenger in the case of the idolaters? Except for those with whom you entered into a pact in the vicinity of the Holy mosque. So, abide by the pact as long as they remain true (and abide). Indeed, Allah loves those who are dutiful. How (can there be a pact since) whenever they gain an upper hand over you they neither honor the kinship ties, nor the obligation of the pact. With their mouths they (utter words to) appease (and assuage) you, even though their hearts refuse. Most of them are (immoral and) rebellious! They traded away the verses (and signs) of Allah for a small gain. Thus, they prevented (people) from (following) His way. What they used to do was really despicable! In the case of the believers, they do not honor kinship ties, or the pact. Of course, it is they who are the offenders _ (the transgressors)."

Clearly, this is in regards to pact violators, and not just idolators in general. The fact that they are allowed to seek asylum, underscores the fact that it is only against hostile enemies.

Here is another one that illustrates this:

Qur'an 2:190-193:

In the path of Allah, fight those who wage a war against you. But do not exceed the limit. Indeed, Allah does not like the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them. Expel them from where they drove you away. Persecution and oppression are worse than killing. Do not do battle with them near the sacred house of worship (Makkah), unless it is they who engage you in battle there. If they fight you there, then slay them (there). That is the due punishment for the disbelievers. If they desist, then of course Allah is the most Forgiving and the most Merciful. Fight (and confront) them till corruption and repression cease, and until faith in Allah (and justice) prevails! But if they desist, then let there be no aggression, except against the oppressors.

This quite clearly illustrates that it is only against hostile enemies and oppressors.

Quote

These names are used for God in the OT, and also for Jesus in the NT:
Lord, Lord of hosts, Lord of glory, Savior, Redeemer, I AM, Rock, King,
First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End.
Why are none of these names continued on in the Quran?

It is a lie to say that none of them are. "Lord", "King", "First", "Last" are all names God has in the Qur'an.

Quote

RE: the TEST to determine if a spirit, angel, etc. is from God or from Satan
1 John 4:
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Explanation:
Everyone knows/believes that a man called Jesus Christ was born (came in the flesh).
This is talking about God being born (coming in the flesh). Hello!

It is only your assumption that it is talking about God being born as Jesus, as there is absolutely no objective reason to believe that, based on the contents of 1 John 4:1-3 alone.

Quote

See Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6, etc.

Isaiah 7:14:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin/maiden will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

It says nothing about "Jesus" being divine. Plus, "Jesus" has never been referred to as "Immanuel" in the Bible.

Isaiah 9:6:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

All of those are prophetic titles expounding his accomplishments, as it only says he will be called those things, not that he is those things. The Bible uses the term "god" quite liberally. Psalm 82:6, for example, uses that "god" title as well. And again, we don't see the name of "Jesus" mentioned in reference to Isaiah 9:6 at all. Some interpret it to be referring to King Hezekiah.

Quote

You say “the doctrine of Christianity was neither established, nor taught, by "Jesus", but by Paul.
Without Paul, there would have been no Christianity as it is today.”
This again is hilarious.
Please present one of Paul’s doctrines that is different from that of Jesus.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying: I'm saying that Christian doctrine today is the work of Paul, not "Jesus". The doctrines of "Salvation through the cross" and "faith in the resurrection" were all invented by Paul. These doctrines have nothing to do with what "Jesus" taught, and Paul almost never quoted "Jesus" in his letters and writings. If you cut out everything that came from Paul in the NT, none of the fundamental Christian doctrines would be there.

Quote

The Bible stands on its own, requiring no one or nothing to explain it.
Hint: God is not the author of confusion, Satan is.

No, it does not "stand on its own". That's why there are Prophets, Messengers, religious leaders, preachers, and scholars; because without them, you wouldn't have a clue on where to begin and how to do things.

Quote

RE: the Helper/Comforter/Paraclete
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth …
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
… And We (God) will come to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
(John 14:16--26)
The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind".

Then "another of the same kind" as "Jesus", would therefore be another Prophet, Apostle and Messenger of God, whose teachings, name, and guidance shall remain as a shining beacon to mankind in the hearts of believers even after his death (i.e. "forever").

And of course, those Muslims who believe this to have originally mentioned Prophet Muhammad by name, regard it as having been tampered with and distorted:

The "PARACLETE" is not the Holy Spirit

Quote

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Muslims have constantly proven to me that they do not understand this.
I.E. they talk as if their thinking, logic, reasoning, etc. is the same as God's.

But you seem to do the same thing, when wondering how God could allow the OT to become corrupted?

Unless they're talking on behalf of God, then they aren't really talking as if their thoughts are the same as God's.

[Choosing]

Kamasatti,

Again, many (but not all) of your comments have blown me away. So much so that I'm speechless.

If you (or someone else) invites me to, I will post a thread which explains WHY you do NOT understand spiritual truth.

But, I warn you, the terrible truth is not very pretty.

Anyone courageous enough to go for it?

Okay, how 'bout curious enough?

[Kamasatti]

Choosing, on 04 March 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

Kamasatti,

Again, many (but not all) of your comments have blown me away. So much so that I'm speechless.

If you (or someone else) invites me to, I will post a thread which explains WHY you do NOT understand spiritual truth.

But, I warn you, the terrible truth is not very pretty.

Anyone courageous enough to go for it?

Okay, how 'bout curious enough?

If that's what you really want to discuss, then open a new thread and discuss it. All of the "questions" (polemics) about Islam you've brought up in this thread have been sufficiently answered anyway.

[Choosing]

THE TEST FOR AUTHENTICITY

Further to my friendly discussion with Kamasatti regarding (among other things) this TEST:

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

Everyone knows that the man Jesus Christ was born on the earth (came in the flesh).
But, these verses are talking about God being born on the earth.

This TEST is more valid than you might think because of the following Scriptures:

Isaiah 7:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
The Hebrew word “Immanuel” means “God (is) with us”.
It is not uncommon for biblical prophecies to have one level of fulfillment in the immediate future,
and a final fulfillment many years later in the person and work of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Notice the equality, etc. of the Father and the Son.

Matthew 1:
23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,
which is translated, “God with us.”

Luke 1:
31 And behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name JESUS.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest …
35 … also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

"Son of God" must be a name or title since everyone knows God never mated and had any offspring.

Luke 2:
11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NT verses reveal that the Jews always believed the Son of God = the Christ = the Messiah.
Why doesn't someone investigate the claim that the Jews also believed He was God?

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us …

Revelation 19:
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Romans 9:
5 of whom (the Israelites) are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh,
Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Galatians 4:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman …

1 Timothy 3:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh …

Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren (man),
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

[Kamasatti]

Choosing, on 05 March 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

THE TEST FOR AUTHENTICITY

Further to my friendly discussion with Kamasatti regarding (among other things) this TEST:

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

Everyone knows that the man Jesus Christ was born on the earth (came in the flesh).[/color][/font]

Not everyone knows this nor believes this, and certainly at that time, not everyone believed that. Not everyone believes that "Jesus" was "Christ", which is clarified elsewhere. In 1 John 2:21-23, it is clarified:

I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Here, it is specified that it is the acknowledgment of "Jesus" as being "the Christ" (i.e. "the Messiah") that is required, which does not necessarily include the belief that "Jesus" is God himself. The term "Son" in Hebrew and Aramaic, doesn't mean an actual "Son", as it can, and does mean "Servant" and has been translated as such. It has also been used to refer to "Israel"/"Jacob", such as in Exodus 4:22 and Hosea 11:1. It is only Christians who have distorted it to mean something it doesn't.

Since the Qur'an refers to "Jesus" as "al-Masih" ("the Messiah"), it acknowledges him as being such, and therefore "passes the test".

Quote

But, these verses are talking about God being born on the earth.

Except these verses do not describe "Jesus" as being God.

Quote

This TEST is more valid than you might think because of the following Scriptures:
Isaiah 7:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign:
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
The Hebrew word “Immanuel” means “God (is) with us”.
It is not uncommon for biblical prophecies to have one level of fulfillment in the immediate future,
and a final fulfillment many years later in the person and work of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

There is also no mention of this son being divine, so it doesn't really prove anything.

Quote

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Notice the equality, etc. of the Father and the Son.

It is important to notice that all of those are prophetic titles expounding his accomplishments, as it only says he will be called those things, not that he is those things. The Bible uses the term "god" quite liberally. Psalm 82:6, for example, uses that "god" title as well. And again, we don't see the name of "Jesus" mentioned in reference to Isaiah 9:6 at all. Some interpret it to be referring to King Hezekiah.

Quote

Matthew 1:
23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,
which is translated, “God with us.”

A lot of Hebrew names have "God" in them, where "El" is used to refer to God. For example:

"Ishmael" - "God has hearkened"

"Israel" - "Struggled with God", "Challenge God" or "God rules"/"God judges"

"Samuel" - "Heard of God"

"Elijah"- "My God Yahweh" or "Yahweh is my God".

"Ezekiel" - "Strong God", "God will strengthen"

and of course the title:

"Immanuel" - "God is with us".

All of these names belong to people who are not God, so the usage of "God" in a title can hardly be said to be evidence of divinity.

Quote

Luke 1:
31 And behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name JESUS.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest …
35 … also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

"Son of God" must be a name or title since everyone knows God never mated and had any offspring.

"Son of God" in Hebrew, translates to "Servant of God".

Quote

Luke 2:
11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
NT verses reveal that the Jews always believed the Son of God = the Christ = the Messiah.
Why doesn't someone investigate the claim that the Jews also believed He was God?

Because the Jews did not believe that he would be God himself. All those titles of "god", "lord", etc. were used very liberally in the Bible, and it's dishonest to say it means one thing for "Jesus" and something else for all the others, as such a conclusion cannot be established objectively.

Quote

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us …

John 1:1 is more honestly translated (as it is in "The New Testament, An American Translation") as:

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."

This, of course, means that the Word is not God himself, as it is only "divine". The Qur'an defines "the Word" that is with God, as his command "Be", as in "Become", which, when he commands it for a matter, it becomes whatever he wills it to become:

For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 16:40)

He has commanded it so; whenever He intends anything to be, He says to it ‘Be!’ and it becomes! (Qur'an 36:82)

He it is Who gives life and causes death. And when He decides upon a thing He says to it only: "Be!" and it is. (Qur'an 40:68)

And "Jesus" being a "word from God", is because God created him, then said to him "Be" and he "became":

Verily the likeness of Jesus in the sight of God, is as the likeness of Adam: He created him out of the dust, and then said unto him, "be"; and he was. (Qur'an 3:59)

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 19:35)

Thus, "Jesus" is the fulfillment of God's divine word, as is Adam, which makes neither of them divine themselves.

Quote

Revelation 19:
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Of course, "Jesus" is referred to as the "Word of God" in the Qur'an, which doesn't make him divine.

Quote

16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Which demonstrates nothing.

Quote

Romans 9:
5 of whom (the Israelites) are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh,
Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Galatians 4:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman …

Both "Romans" and "Galatians" are the works of Paul, not "Jesus", and have little to nothing to do with what "Jesus" taught.

Quote

1 Timothy 3:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh …

These aren't the words of "Jesus", but the words of Paul.

Sir Isaac Newton on I Timothy 3:16 :

In all the times of the hot and lasting Arian controversy it never came into play . . . they that read "God manifested in the flesh" think it one of the most obvious and pertinent texts for the business. "The word Deity imports exercise of dominion over subordinate beings and the word God most frequently signifies Lord. Every lord is not God. The exercise of dominion in a spiritual being constitutes a God. If that dominion be real that being is the real God; if it be fictitious, a false God; if it be supreme, a supreme God."

Newton also wrote a discussion on two other texts that Athanasius had attempted to corrupt. This work has not been preserved. He believed that not all the books of the Scriptures have the same authority.

Reference A. Wallace, "Anti-Trinitarian Biographies," Vol. III, 1850.

Quote

Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren (man),
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Again, this is from Paul, and also says nothing about "Jesus" being divine.

[Marvelicious]

He hasn't answered ours...does he now admit that according to his fellow christians the Masoretic torah has indeed been changed throughout history?

[Choosing]

Marvelicious, on 05 March 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

He hasn't answered ours...does he now admit that according to his fellow christians the Masoretic torah has indeed been changed throughout history?

Look, I'm open to be educated about this.
But, I'm certainly not interested in researching it.

Why not give me an example of an IMPORTANT alteration.
But, don't send me to any websites. A sentence or 2 would be sufficient.

But, I'll warn you that for me there are not very many IMPORTANT topics in the OT.
And, God has NOT failed to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.

Here are my most IMPORTANT topics:
1) God reveals Himself as being all-mighty, all-knowing, all-powerful.
2) God lays down His Laws (The Ten Commandments, don't lie, etc.).
3) God proves that man (a hopeless sinner) is totally incapable of satisfying Him.
4) God says He's going to institute a new, better, more personal covenant.
5) God prophesies 330+ times about His coming Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.

Note re: point 3
The Jews couldn't handle all of God's laws, so they wrote several books to get around them.

Did I miss anything IMPORTANT?
If you have something good, I'll add it to my list. Fair enough?

[Marvelicious]

Choosing, on 06 March 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

Look, I'm open to be educated about this. But, I'm certainly not interested in researching it.

Why not give me an example of an IMPORTANT alteration. But, don't send me to any websites. A sentence or 2 would be sufficient.

But, I'll warn you that for me there are not very many IMPORTANT topics in the OT. And, God has NOT failed to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.

Do you admit that according to Christian scholars the Torah has been changed for political reasons?

Or are you claiming that the websites are fake or indeed that the Christian scholars referenced are wrong, liars, or aren't Christians?

I provided you with website links to articles by Christian scholars. I'd have thought you would be delighted to learn more about such an important matter.

Surely you don't expect me to make claims without evidence? And I thought it best to provide you with evidence from your fellow Christians...

It's very important you see that we establish whether the Torah is unchanged or as the verse says the hands of the scribes have changed it...

I sense that you're becoming a bit tetchy...relax. It's early days yet, and we haven't really started with you yet...lol

[Marvelicious]

Does this argument from CS Lewis make any sense?

Quote

In “Mere Christianity,” Lewis writes of Jesus: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell.”

He's either mad or he's God?