Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:
Jeremiah 8:8 reminds me of a verse in the Quran that talks of the scribes writing stuff.
But, even Muslim scholars say it has nothing to do with tahrif of "the Scriptures".
They say it refers to their notes, letters, maybe even books.
Obviously, not every "Muslim scholar" agrees with that, otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue. Like I've said before, if you have an actual verse that explains that it isn't the scripture that's been scribed falsely (not just people's opinions), then please present it. Educated opinions aren't enough.
The biggest problem is you don't understand that ...
Almighty God did not fail to preserve (at the very least) His major important doctrines.
Please, try to abide by that olde wise saying, "Don't sweat duh small stuff".
What God preserved of the Bible is what is consistent with the Qur'an. What is inconsistent with the Qur'an is what is corrupted, and what is neither consistent nor inconsistent, may or may not be authentic.
Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:
RE: the Related topic in Post #5
Allah refused to heal the Jews of their spiritual blindness (Deut.29:3-4, Isaiah 6:9-10).
Now, does this mean they were not blind originally, but Allah had made them blind?
No. They were originally as all men are: spiritually blind and deaf.
If they had pleased him, then he would have healed them.
This refers to original sin, spiritual death, separation from Allah, spiritual blindness, etc.
God, in fact, promised to heal them in the end times:
24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land (1948).
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness
and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land (1948);
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations,
nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places
in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God."
This has begun … with the Messianic Jews. But slowly, slowly, let's not rush.
Let's not forget: "with the Lord one day is as 1000 years" (Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8)
That has nothing to do with the creation of the "State of Israel" in 1948, nor the "End Times". The book of Ezekiel was allegedly composed during the time of Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE, and this prophecy of the return of the children of Israel to Palestine, was fulfilled when that captivity ended in 520-515 BCE. It was, of course, only after this point, that the Torah become a central role in Jewish life, in addition to the emergence of scribes and sages as Jewish leaders, thus fulfilling the rest of that prophecy.
The contemporary "State of Israel" is something else entirely.
Choosing, on 03 March 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:
Concerning your glorious and much heralded Post #6,
I’m taking back your medal because I can easily point out several errors.
Almighty God orchestrated thousands of years of history to have His precious Scriptures written
in order to instruct mankind ... and you say He didn’t want to preserve them?
That is an opinion based on conjecture, not facts, and one which I have already responded to.
You say “The God of the Bible and the Qur'an is the same”
In the OT, God had to kill Israel’s enemies to preserve them.
In the NT, God’s true nature shines through … a God of unconditional love.
In the Quran, this is not the case at all.
It is always, “Allah loves those who …” and “Allah does NOT love those who …”
The NT doesn't count, because it is composed of accounts of men, not scripture. The "preservation of Israel" against its enemies is comparable to the preservation of the early Muslim community against their enemies. However, the Israelites' battles were not limited to defense, as it clearly illustrates in the Bible, they engaged in offense as well.
God’s NT plan of salvation is obviously totally different than what is in the Quran.
That's because the NT isn't from God, while the Qur'an is.
Why would anyone alter the historical stories about Abraham, Moses, etc. in the Torah?
Are any doctrines involved?
I say the Quran has different stories to undermine peoples’ faith in the Torah.
You can say and think what you want, but given the history of alterations in the OT, it is very much conceivable that they would. The motives they would've had are irrelevant, as the fact of the matter is that is what was done regardless.
The blood covenants I am talking about are in both OT and NT, but not in Quran:
The shed blood of a sacrifice was used to atone for (cover over) the sins of the people.
As the saying goes, "different strokes for different folks".
Those that were sacrificed were animals (never humans), and this was a practice of their pagan neighbors, which were adopted and Judaicized. In terms of seeking forgiveness for sin, it has always been inferior to prayer. According to the Bible itself, God didn't really care for these blood sacrifices for atonement (Hosea 6:6, Isaiah 1:11, Jeremiah 7:21-22).
The idea of "Jesus" as a "blood sacrifice" for "atonement" in the NT is something completely different, as human sacrifices and animal sacrifices are completely different in the OT.
Apparently, in Islam (in Quran?) there are 6 exceptions to the command not to lie.
In the NT, there are absolutely no exceptions.
For Paul there are exceptions. In Islam, there may be situations where you are allowed (although discouraged) to lie, but that's it.
9:5-6 says to kill idolaters (when the sacred months are over) unless they seek asylum with you.
9:123 says to make war on the infidels who dwell around you (fight the disbelievers who are near to you).
Nothing about being in the middle of a war.
In what I quoted, there is ample evidence that it is limited to hostile enemies, as the restrictions and conditions it sets, leave no one else to fight against.
Let us look at Surah 9:5-6 in its textual context:
"The abrogation of the pact (is hereby being proclaimed) by Allah and His messenger _ the pact you made with (some of) the polytheist (tribes). So, (Oh idolaters)! you may (stay and) move about in the land (in peace) for four months. You should know that you shall definitely not render Allah powerless. Allah is surely going to disgrace you. An announcement for mankind from Allah and His messenger on the great day of Hajj (the pilgrimage): Allah and His messenger are free of any obligation concerning the Polytheists _ (those accepting partners with Allah). It is (Oh Idolaters!) better for you to (desist and) repent. For if you turn away, remember that you are unable to frustrate (and elude the grip of) Allah. So, warn the unbelievers of a painful punishment! Except for those polytheist with whom you entered into a pact, and who neither violated any of its conditions, nor aided others against you. Honor (all aspects of) the pact made with them, for the duration of its term. Indeed, Allah loves those who are pious. After the sacred months _ (the grace period of four months) _ have expired, slay them wherever you find them. Seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them at all possible places. But if they repent, establish ‘salat’, and pay the ‘zakat’, then let them go their way. Of course, Allah is the most Forgiving and the most Merciful. If any of the idolaters asks you for an asylum, give him refuge till he hears the word of Allah _ (the Qur’an). After that, escort him to a safe place. That, because they are a people who do not know. How can there exist an obligation (of the pact) upon Allah and His messenger in the case of the idolaters? Except for those with whom you entered into a pact in the vicinity of the Holy mosque. So, abide by the pact as long as they remain true (and abide). Indeed, Allah loves those who are dutiful. How (can there be a pact since) whenever they gain an upper hand over you they neither honor the kinship ties, nor the obligation of the pact. With their mouths they (utter words to) appease (and assuage) you, even though their hearts refuse. Most of them are (immoral and) rebellious! They traded away the verses (and signs) of Allah for a small gain. Thus, they prevented (people) from (following) His way. What they used to do was really despicable! In the case of the believers, they do not honor kinship ties, or the pact. Of course, it is they who are the offenders _ (the transgressors)."
Clearly, this is in regards to pact violators, and not just idolators in general. The fact that they are allowed to seek asylum, underscores the fact that it is only against hostile enemies.
Here is another one that illustrates this:
In the path of Allah, fight those who wage a war against you. But do not exceed the limit. Indeed, Allah does not like the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them. Expel them from where they drove you away. Persecution and oppression are worse than killing. Do not do battle with them near the sacred house of worship (Makkah), unless it is they who engage you in battle there. If they fight you there, then slay them (there). That is the due punishment for the disbelievers. If they desist, then of course Allah is the most Forgiving and the most Merciful. Fight (and confront) them till corruption and repression cease, and until faith in Allah (and justice) prevails! But if they desist, then let there be no aggression, except against the oppressors.
This quite clearly illustrates that it is only against hostile enemies and oppressors.
These names are used for God in the OT, and also for Jesus in the NT:
Lord, Lord of hosts, Lord of glory, Savior, Redeemer, I AM, Rock, King,
First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End.
Why are none of these names continued on in the Quran?
It is a lie to say that none of them are. "Lord", "King", "First", "Last" are all names God has in the Qur'an.
RE: the TEST to determine if a spirit, angel, etc. is from God or from Satan
1 John 4:
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Everyone knows/believes that a man called Jesus Christ was born (came in the flesh).
This is talking about God being born (coming in the flesh). Hello!
It is only your assumption that it is talking about God being born as Jesus, as there is absolutely no objective reason to believe that, based on the contents of 1 John 4:1-3 alone.
See Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6, etc.
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin/maiden will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
It says nothing about "Jesus" being divine. Plus, "Jesus" has never been referred to as "Immanuel" in the Bible.
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
All of those are prophetic titles expounding his accomplishments, as it only says he will be called
those things, not
that he is
those things. The Bible uses the term "god" quite liberally. Psalm 82:6, for example, uses that "god" title as well. And again, we don't see the name of "Jesus" mentioned in reference to Isaiah 9:6 at all. Some interpret it to be referring to King Hezekiah.
You say “the doctrine of Christianity was neither established, nor taught, by "Jesus", but by Paul.
Without Paul, there would have been no Christianity as it is today.”
This again is hilarious.
Please present one of Paul’s doctrines that is different from that of Jesus.
You aren't understanding what I'm saying: I'm saying that Christian doctrine today is the work of Paul, not "Jesus". The doctrines of "Salvation through the cross" and "faith in the resurrection" were all invented by Paul. These doctrines have nothing to do with what "Jesus" taught, and Paul almost never quoted "Jesus" in his letters and writings. If you cut out everything that came from Paul in the NT, none of the fundamental Christian doctrines would be there.
The Bible stands on its own, requiring no one or nothing to explain it.
Hint: God is not the author of confusion, Satan is.
No, it does not "stand on its own". That's why there are Prophets, Messengers, religious leaders, preachers, and scholars; because without them, you wouldn't have a clue on where to begin and how to do things.
RE: the Helper/Comforter/Paraclete
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth …
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
… And We (God) will come to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind".
Then "another of the same kind" as "Jesus", would therefore be another
Prophet, Apostle and Messenger of God, whose teachings, name, and guidance shall remain as a shining beacon to mankind in
the hearts of believers even after his death (i.e. "forever").
And of course, those Muslims who believe this to have originally mentioned Prophet Muhammad by name, regard it as having been tampered with and distorted:
The "PARACLETE" is not the Holy Spirit
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Muslims have constantly proven to me that they do not understand this.
I.E. they talk as if their thinking, logic, reasoning, etc. is the same as God's.
But you seem to do the same thing, when wondering how God could allow the OT to become corrupted?
Unless they're talking on behalf of God, then they aren't really talking as if their thoughts are the same as God's.