[dreamdeferred]

MossadConspiracy said:

salam

salam

i really cant go to google and read for 35 minutes then rehash it here like its off the top of my head

so i'll just say- i did read some studies about certain regions of the brain looking different in gay guys compared to straight guys. I cant remember any of the details, but it wasnt anything definitive. I also remember reading something about hair whorls and finger length being predictors too, with gay guys having statistically significant differences in the occurrences of different variants there. I went to a lecture once where they talked about the uterine environment playing a role.

I think all of these studies really just tell us that there probably is a biological aspect to it, but that it isnt entirely predictable and mechanistically its all very poorly understood. Also something complex like sexual behavior has to have social and psychological components.

ws

lol @ your first sentence.

Thanks for your insight though. I agree that the complexity of the issue tends to be glossed over for religio-political reasons.

Sugarberry said:

welll look who showed their narrow minded head. obviously you dont know what your talking about so maybe you should shut it.

Mossad has a very dry sense of humor sis. Don't take it too serious.

This post has been edited by dreamdeferred: 09 May 2010 - 02:52 PM
Reason for edit: tmi/ocd

[TrentReznor858]

Allow me to clear something up: I was referring to the senator and various shiekhs over the years that have married children, not the prophet. This whole situation begs the obvious question: How is it that pedophelia isnt distinctly forbidden in Islam, but homosexuality is? How is it that gay men were allowed to associate with the prophets wives, yet supposedly they should be thrown off a mountain?

[DawudIsrael]

Oh then he probably isn't gay, just a little confused. I noticed a lot of really smart, charismatic men go gay- think Foucault or Patrick Stuart, because women come off as brainless and become nothing more than tablets for fashion and makeup!

There are plenty of charismatic women out there- but he might have to look around outside his race or culture or religion. When he finds a woman who is into things like art, poetry, music, drama, activism, than I think he'll go back permanently. Generally, yeah, older women have more personality than young gals.

All the best!

This post has been edited by DawudIsrael: 09 May 2010 - 10:05 PM

[Variable]

zzze said:

I know of people who have been cured (of assumed life-long 'illnesses') by the Will of Allah through similar means...so anything is possible.

I don't think people can stop being homosexual. I think a lot of times though we tend to imprint our own impression of a desired outcome onto a situation like that.

[zzze]

I'm not just saying people can just stop being homosexual of their own free will. It's been suggested that through purification and other spiritual means that there's a possibility it can change. Allah swt is the all-powerful, so anything is possible.

Du'a can be made to be freed from the inclinations etc, but ultimately anyone fighting his/her nafs (lower self) should be prepared for a life long struggle.

[Anderson]

who cares about gays if they keep it private.

[ChotooMotoo]

please don't be offended. In practical every day life how is a male homosexual different than a heterosexual woman who isn't able to get married? Is it that we expect women to control their sexual urges, but we don't expect the same from men? To me they are the same test. In one case the man can't get married and is attracted to men and cannot act on his urges. In the other case the woman can't get married, and also cannot act on her urges. I don't think it makes a person defective as a human being.

[ThePatriarchy]

DawudIsrael said:

Oh then he probably isn't gay, just a little confused. I noticed a lot of really smart, charismatic men go gay- think Foucault or Patrick Stuart, because women come off as brainless and become nothing more than tablets for fashion and makeup!

There are plenty of charismatic women out there- but he might have to look around outside his race or culture or religion. When he finds a woman who is into things like art, poetry, music, drama, activism, than I think he'll go back permanently. Generally, yeah, older women have more personality than young gals.

Agreed.

[Family]

DawudIsrael said:

Oh then he probably isn't gay, just a little confused. I noticed a lot of really smart, charismatic men go gay- think Foucault or Patrick Stuart, because women come off as brainless and become nothing more than tablets for fashion and makeup!

There are plenty of charismatic women out there- but he might have to look around outside his race or culture or religion. When he finds a woman who is into things like art, poetry, music, drama, activism, than I think he'll go back permanently. Generally, yeah, older women have more personality than young gals.

I hope to God that is so. Not because I am a homophobe, but because his life would be hard. He said he knows some non-Muslim woman who are like this. I hope he finds a girl, doesn`t matter what religion, race.....life is too short for that.

ChotooMotoo said:

please don't be offended. In practical every day life how is a male homosexual different than a heterosexual woman who isn't able to get married? Is it that we expect women to control their sexual urges, but we don't expect the same from men? To me they are the same test. In one case the man can't get married and is attracted to men and cannot act on his urges. In the other case the woman can't get married, and also cannot act on her urges. I don't think it makes a person defective as a human being.

It is not the urges. My brother never had sex with a man and sais he doesn`t intend to because it is a sin, but if he can`t have it with a woman, that means he can`t have it at all and can never be a father, which is hard. A not married woman can have sex and children (naturally or in some other way).

This post has been edited by Family: 09 May 2010 - 05:56 PM
Reason for edit: This was automatically merged to prevent double-posting.

[Jaysh]

TrentReznor858 said:

Ironic that people are fighting to defend someones choice to marry a 9 year old on one thread, saying "oh its part of the culture back then yada yada yada" while recommending someone be celibate because they have no interest in sexual relationships with the opposite sex. Maybe you could extend that "culture" excuse to these muslims as well?

Trent: I do not believe that people should marry 9 year olds. Rather, I support laws that place laws prohibiting marriage earlier than 18 years old.

Wolfn said:

I agree with Trent. This might sound bad, but hear my out: We all defend Muhammad (SAW) because he married Aysha when she was a child.

The argument we raise is that the Prophet (s) did NOT marry a child. Rather, it was over a thousand years ago, and at that time the cultural norm was such.

There is also the issue that some scholars say that the age of Aisha (ra) was not 9, but rather older than that.

Quote

Yet when someone is gay, all Hell breaks loose and we even have extremist countries like Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran who publicly execute gays just because they are attracted to the same gender.

I wholeheartedly oppose the state killing homosexuals. No authentic statement can be attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (s) saying this, nor did he (s) ever do that.

thejellymill said:

Umm I don't think trent was intending to criticize the Prophet(S). If I'm not mistaken I think he was referring to a recent thread about some politician overseas marrying a young girl.

I disagree with you, because his post was directed towards me, and I've never defended anyone in this day and age marrying a young girl.

I have, however, defended the Prophet (s), and this because I believe him to be the Messenger of God and the Mercy to the Worlds.

zzze said:

I'm not just saying people can just stop being homosexual of their own free will. It's been suggested that through purification and other spiritual means that there's a possibility it can change. Allah swt is the all-powerful, so anything is possible.

Du'a can be made to be freed from the inclinations etc, but ultimately anyone fighting his/her nafs (lower self) should be prepared for a life long struggle.

Good post, zzze. I honestly don't know if people can change these urges, or if they can change through prayer. I'm not gay, so I couldn't possibly know. Yet, I know that people can pray to ask Allah (swt) to give them strength not to act on urges.

One last thing:

I am not oblivious to the issue of on the one hand scorning homosexuality and on the other hand justifying what the Prophet (s) did. It seems to me, however, that we are theologically constrained in this matter. There is too much textual proof to support the idea that Allah (swt) does not approve of homosexuality. It's said explicitly in the Quran.

Trent, the question is, is: what would you have me do?

What I take away from your point is that certain things we Muslims see as inappropriate are considered by some non-Muslims to be appropriate, and vice/versa...and therefore, we should be tolerant of these different views. I am simply saying that if the person wishes to be an observant Muslim, then in that case celibacy is one choice they can make. I believe you yourself have been one to mock me for being celibate for 27 years. I did not say it is easy. It is very hard. But this is if a person really wishes to conform to the Quranic rules. If not, then that's their choice and I cannot force them to. Everyone has the right to do as they see fit in this matter, and I'm not trying to enforce my view on any other.

Fi Aman Allah

[ChotooMotoo]

Family said:

It is not the urges. My brother never had sex with a man and sais he doesn`t intend to because it is a sin, but if he can`t have it with a woman, that means he can`t have it at all and can never be a father, which is hard. A not married woman can have sex and children (naturally or in some other way).

No, she can't. Your brother says he can't have sex with a man because it's a sin. Well, if a woman isn't married, she can't have sex either because to do so would be a sin. Islamically the only sex a person can have is within the bounds of marriage. Islamically she can't have children without a husband either. Besides which, getting married is no guarantee of fatherhood/motherhood. For all your brother knows even if he were to get married some issue would arrise which would prevent him from having children. There are too many variables in life and nothing is guaranteed.

[Family]

I believe the Thread should be closed. Thanks everybody to contributing.

[EirinnMoChroi]

Family said:

I hope to God that is so. Not because I am a homophobe, but because his life would be hard. He said he knows some non-Muslim woman who are like this. I hope he finds a girl, doesn`t matter what religion, race.....life is too short for that.



It is not the urges. My brother never had sex with a man and sais he doesn`t intend to because it is a sin, but if he can`t have it with a woman, that means he can`t have it at all and can never be a father, which is hard. A not married woman can have sex and children (naturally or in some other way).

well.....thats not necessarily true. There are ways in which to be able to perform sexually with a woman even if hes gay. It just requires some...extra help

the movie Saved will say what im trying to say. I just dont want people saying I dont have any haya!

[Haramoobobi]

Family said:

Salam alaykum everybody,

I have been reading this page for months and yet last night happened something which lead me to write here and asking you what to do.

My 25 year old brother handed me a 4 pages letter last night, saying he is gay. In it he described that he has been feeling that way all his life. Having guy cruses in school and so on. I realised how hard must have been for him, so I acted as if it was not a big deal. He asked me if I hated him now, and I said, no way I wish him only to be happy and it`s a hard world out there. Inside I was very confused and the first thing that came to my mind was, he will never have children and get married. He is a good person, may I say that he is also very handsome, girls are crazy about him and he never responded truly, only pretended. Yes he showed interest in girls, dated some of them and in his letter he told me that he doesn`t want to get married and make some poor girl unhappy, even though that was his plan before.
Last year he was being "friends" with a guy, we all knew was gay, but deeply devotet Muslim, so I told him not to see him, not knowing my brother was gay.
I told him not to tell our parents, because the reaction of my father would probably be not to accept him. My older brother is a homophobe, a rather strict person. I am affraid what this might mean for his future. There is no family member who would not judge him, so I believe he shouldn`t tell anybody and let the secret die with me and him. But they will start asking questions, why doesn`t he get married and so forth. When he told me, I just told him we should go out and have something to eat, we did that. We talked a bit and he told me that he only wants to be loved, can`t live in a lie. And there I was looking at him. My tall, good looking, highly educated brother, will have an unfulfilling life. The worst part was when he told me, he would still like to be a father someday and I said, how, and he responded, well somehow. I could die in that moment, because it is him lying to himself again. Why did this happen? Is it a test from God?

I gues I just needed to share this with somebody, it is probably no different to stories of other people. I am still confused, It`s been only 10 hours sinse he told me.

Wasalaam, I was once in a lecture with Sh Hamzah Yusuf and someone told him a similar story. He asked his teacher and his teacher said it was a bigger sin to cut off family ties then to be gay.

Probably the best response to the question of homosexuality within the Islamic framework is encompassed in the video below. Enjoy:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisIwWhyU34"]YouTube- Is There A Place For Gay Muslims?[/nomedia]

If you are trying to come to terms about someone being a religious Muslim and gay/questioning etc at the same time you might want to take a look at a doc-movie called "A Jihad for Love" here's the link to the first part:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT4gz3fdYhM"]YouTube- A Jihad For Love Part 1/8 (Documentary)[/nomedia]

Hope that helps inshAllah