[Wolfn]

Rain said:

sorry, I don't quite understand - the Prophet (SAW) married (H) Aysha when she was 8/9 and this guy's brother is gay. what's your point?

I agree with Trent. This might sound bad, but hear my out: We all defend Muhammad (SAW) because he married Aysha when she was a child. Yet when someone is gay, all Hell breaks loose and we even have extremist countries like Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran who publicly execute gays just because they are attracted to the same gender.

In my opinion, who cares what someone's orientation is. I have plenty of gay friends who are very honest, polite, friendly, and really good people, yet there are Muslims out there who want them killed just because they are attracted to the same sex.

Seriously, does anyone else find this messed up?

[nunyobeezwax]

Umm I don't think trent was intending to criticize the Prophet(S). If I'm not mistaken I think he was referring to a recent thread about some politician overseas marrying a young girl.

[salmasays2]

what are mukhanath?

DawudIsrael said:

There are communities out there for practicing Muslims who have gay tendencies, like a support group to keep them on the Straight Path. I think there is one online, which I will try to find and message to you.

There are other Muslims who are outwardly gay and Muslim, but don't use Islam to justify their homosexuality, whereas there are others who do. And then there are brothers who are just confused- one dude I knew, who wasn't gay but brainwashed into thinking he was. Others just get raped or sexual abuse when they are young and that transforms them into homosexuals. There's a lot of reasons out there.

And yes, its just a trial, he can endure. And he can avoid praying in jamaah in the masjid, or being near men, and heck probably it would be better for him then to keep female friends- he would be without sin, if he is gay and not bisexual. He's not the usual case, so the strict rules of Islam change for him (the mukhanath used to mix with the wives of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam and were told to leave when there was doubt as to whether they were attracted to women as well). Very few people are actually strictly homosexual/heterosexual, many people are somewhere in between- having thoughts, at the very least for both genders- and even then, it is still a struggle against the nafs.

One of the righteous shaykhs mentioned in Kashf al-Mahjub is recorded as saying:

“There is no flame of lust that cannot be extinguished by strenuous effort, because what vice proceeds from yourself, you possess the instrument that will remove it, another is not necessary for that purpose.”

Lastly remember this life is transitory, temporary and not permanent. We live in but the moment, a fragment of space-time, where we only really need to resist something in the "now," which is gone 5 seconds later. So it's only for a little while he has to endure this- it's nothing compared to the ocean of the Akhirah.

And with Allah is Tawfique. Barakallahu feek!

[Jamroll]

salmasays2 said:

what are mukhanath?

kuhsreh.

Wolfn said:

I agree with Trent. This might sound bad, but hear my out: We all defend Muhammad (SAW) because he married Aysha when she was a child. Yet when someone is gay, all Hell breaks loose and we even have extremist countries like Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran who publicly execute gays just because they are attracted to the same gender.

Just to clarify, I don't think Pakistan has ever executed anyone for being gay. Also, they don't do public executions in Pakistan.

[princesszz]

Wolfn said:

I agree with Trent. This might sound bad, but hear my out: We all defend Muhammad (SAW) because he married Aysha when she was a child.

salams,
that's a fair question.
however, by comparing an eight year old girl of 12th century and now, is wrong on many levels. heck, even comparing a 19th century teenager and 21st, is measuring like metric system in US. or comparing apples and oranges.

Wolfn said:

Yet when someone is gay, all Hell breaks loose and we even have extremist countries like Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran who publicly execute gays just because they are attracted to the same gender.

there's no proof that arabs persecute gays and lesbians. infact, saudi govt funds for the transgendered surgeries. and in fact, there are hubs/coffee shops in Tehran that are explicitly catered towards homosexuals.

Wolfn said:

In my opinion, who cares what someone's orientation is. I have plenty of gay friends who are very honest, polite, friendly, and really good people, yet there are Muslims out there who want them killed just because they are attracted to the same sex.

Seriously, does anyone else find this messed up?

i really don't care either about having to deal with a gay person. it's their personal choice at the end of the day. at the end of the day, i'm too consumed with my own wrong doings that my own affairs overrides it all. however, as Allah swt had commanded us, we need to enjoy what's good and forbid what's evil. and homosexuality is forbidden in islam. IMO, it's our duty (perhaps a collective duty: fard e kafiya) to forbid that evil act not through socially isolating them, or mass murdering them etc. but through proper education while showing acceptance and peace towards them.

[Jamroll]

princesszz said:

salams,
that's a fair question.
however, by comparing an eight year old girl of 12th century

7th century.

[Wolfn]

princesszz said:

there's no proof that arabs persecute gays and lesbians. infact, saudi govt funds for the transgendered surgeries. and in fact, there are hubs/coffee shops in Tehran that are explicitly catered towards homosexuals.

[snip]

[snip]

This post has been edited by fatima: 08 May 2010 - 11:18 PM
Reason for edit: removed graphic/disturbing images

[nunyobeezwax]

wolfn, it's a little more complex than what you're making it out to be. how do those pictures prove anything at all?

yes, it's true that sometimes saudi funds such surgeries and yes, there are cafes in iran like princesszz mentioned. there are such places in pakistan too, and you can be sure they also exist in other predominantly muslim countries. additionally, homosexuals and homosexual culture in different regions is not the same as it is here in the united states/western world. you cannot start posting pictures to prove your ridiculous, generalized statement.

[salmasays2]

can i get some proof of this please?

i wondered about this... particularly because I had a gay instructor for kinesiology lab and had to often roll up my sleeves show my neck etc. to my lab partner because we were practicing palpation and muscle testing. all of the students in my lab are female but i felt kind of bad, but i thought he's gay so.... I also have him for another lab in the fall. it would be useful to know.

DawudIsrael said:

(the mukhanath used to mix with the wives of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam and were told to leave when there was doubt as to whether they were attracted to women as well).

And with Allah is Tawfique. Barakallahu feek!

This post has been edited by salmasays2: 08 May 2010 - 11:21 PM
Reason for edit: i can spell muscle...

[Family]

DawudIsrael said:

There are communities out there for practicing Muslims who have gay tendencies, like a support group to keep them on the Straight Path. I think there is one online, which I will try to find and message to you.

There are other Muslims who are outwardly gay and Muslim, but don't use Islam to justify their homosexuality, whereas there are others who do. And then there are brothers who are just confused- one dude I knew, who wasn't gay but brainwashed into thinking he was. Others just get raped or sexual abuse when they are young and that transforms them into homosexuals. There's a lot of reasons out there.

And yes, its just a trial, he can endure. And he can avoid praying in jamaah in the masjid, or being near men, and heck probably it would be better for him then to keep female friends- he would be without sin, if he is gay and not bisexual. He's not the usual case, so the strict rules of Islam change for him (the mukhanath used to mix with the wives of the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam and were told to leave when there was doubt as to whether they were attracted to women as well). Very few people are actually strictly homosexual/heterosexual, many people are somewhere in between- having thoughts, at the very least for both genders- and even then, it is still a struggle against the nafs.

One of the righteous shaykhs mentioned in Kashf al-Mahjub is recorded as saying:

“There is no flame of lust that cannot be extinguished by strenuous effort, because what vice proceeds from yourself, you possess the instrument that will remove it, another is not necessary for that purpose.”

Lastly remember this life is transitory, temporary and not permanent. We live in but the moment, a fragment of space-time, where we only really need to resist something in the "now," which is gone 5 seconds later. So it's only for a little while he has to endure this- it's nothing compared to the ocean of the Akhirah.

And with Allah is Tawfique. Barakallahu feek!

This is so usefull to me, no words to describe. Thank you so much! May Allah bless you.

Wolfn said:

I agree with Trent. This might sound bad, but hear my out: We all defend Muhammad (SAW) because he married Aysha when she was a child. Yet when someone is gay, all Hell breaks loose and we even have extremist countries like Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran who publicly execute gays just because they are attracted to the same gender.

In my opinion, who cares what someone's orientation is. I have plenty of gay friends who are very honest, polite, friendly, and really good people, yet there are Muslims out there who want them killed just because they are attracted to the same sex.

Seriously, does anyone else find this messed up?

I find it messed up. There is a biological reason why somebody is gay and that is when a woman who is pregnant with a male child doesn`t have enough male hormones. This happens when she has too many births and too many sons. With every birth of a son, female body has less male hormones, it naturally protects itself from them. In the case of my brother, he was the third son and is a twin, meaning has a twin sister. So somebody who is carring a boy can actually inject male hormones during pregnancy in order to be safe the child doesn`t turn gay, but people argue if this is humane.

Revert said:

Not really, your brothers emo fascination with the devil will wear off. This guys brother will be gay forever.

Family,

The best thing you can do for your brother is well, be a brother to him. Listen to his worries and offer good advice. Stuff like "Don;t be gay" "Homosexuality is a sin" will work against you. Be sincere and honest but also be respectful, he's still your brother at the end of the day.

Thanks, with clarification that I am a sister. Also thanks to everybody for your kind words.

This post has been edited by Family: 08 May 2010 - 11:55 PM
Reason for edit: This was automatically merged to prevent double-posting.

[fatima]

Family said:

There is a biological reason why somebody is gay and that is when a woman who is pregnant with a male child doesn`t have enough male hormones. This happens when she has too many births and too many sons. With every birth of a son, female body has less male hormones, it naturally protects itself from them. In the case of my brother, he was the third son and is a twin, meaning has a twin sister. So somebody who is carring a boy can actually inject male hormones during pregnancy in order to be safe the child doesn`t turn gay, but people argue if this is humane.

huh? im pretty sure this isnt true...

anyway, inshallah khair. good luck, that seems like a really tough situation to be in

[Family]

Last night I spoke to him. I was wondering if he likes guys for their body or personality,or both. Also, if he is attracted to girls sexually. At first he didn`t want to talk and than I described him how beutifull the shape of a woman is, the glass hour shape, if he doesn`t find that attractive? The act of having the intimacy with a woman he is in love with and who loves him. He said he does, that ofcourse he does get arroused by feemale attributes. The problem is, he sais he is attracted to males as personalities. He describes himself as being in the middle on the scale of attraction, which means he is bisexual, with temporary preference of males. Why? Well he sais he is dissapointed with girls as personalities, sais that the society raises them to be dumb baby machines who want to depend on men and not be their equals. He is yet to find a woman who is strong, independent, like this woman from the movie "7 woman", by John Ford. He is an intellectual and sensitive, can`t carry a load all by himself, and argues woman who have no intellectual ambition irritate him and don`t attract him in a bit. He sais it`s not the fault of woman, it`s what the society does to them by separating them in this "feemale" construction, where everybody plays a rolle. There are woman who are stronger and smarter than their husbands, yet have to let their man lead the way in a family, just because it is a norm, he argues that is sick. And could immagine himself with an older woman, because they tend to have these strong personalities more often.

So there is still hope...I hope. Or maybe he just wanted me not to worry and lied. Well, I gues the time will show.

[Variable]

fatima said:

huh? im pretty sure this isnt true...

anyway, inshallah khair. good luck, that seems like a really tough situation to be in

Believe it or not there is some supporting evidence to back up that theory, and is so far the only one that describes a biological cause - that being male birth order.

[Family]

Variable said:

Believe it or not there is some supporting evidence to back up that theory, and is so far the only one that describes a biological cause - that being male birth order.

Yes, the data confirms this in many cases where people are gay. Also if a mothers mother and her mother had many births, when all woman are very reproductive. Their boys don`t need to turn gay, but the feemale children have less and less male hormones which makes them susceptible to having a gay son. My grandmother had 7 children and who knows how many births, her mother had 10 and my mother had 5 births and one failled birth of a male child that I know of, which means by the time my brother was born, as the youngest, her body was starved of male hormones. She aslo has breast cancer which happens predominantly to woman who are in lack of male hormones and as said my brother has a twin sister who developed with him in the woumb as a very healthy embrio, while my brother was a sickly and not a very healthy child. And yes, if the child turns gay, depends mostly on woman who carry them.

The opposite is for lesbians, you know too much of the hormones and so forth.

[princesszz]

Thanks Jammy, i was thinking something else and i typed something else..lol.

Variable said:

Believe it or not there is some supporting evidence to back up that theory, and is so far the only one that describes a biological cause - that being male birth order.

i remember discussing that theory, actually, it's not a fully supported theory. according to that theory, the homosexuals have a "gay gene". and i believe, that theory stated that every three to five percent of each population pool might have that gene..it doesn't make sense. how could they explorate such a huge conclusion from a small sample?

Allahu Alim.

[Variable]

princesszz said:

i remember discussing that theory, actually, it's not a fully supported theory. according to that theory, the homosexuals have a "gay gene". and i believe, that theory stated that every three to five percent of each population pool might have that gene..it doesn't make sense. how could they explorate such a huge conclusion from a small sample?

Allahu Alim.

Of course, it's not conclusive, there's just some evidence (contested evidence). Though I don't believe this theory mentions genetics, maybe you're thinking of another one.

[dreamdeferred]

Variable said:

Believe it or not there is some supporting evidence to back up that theory, and is so far the only one that describes a biological cause - that being male birth order.

There's another theory out there that posits a biological cause.... based on brain imaging that show a marked/predictable difference in the brains of gay men (don't remember the details).

I don't know how credible this theory is given that we know the brain undergoes structural changes with use (neuroplasticity).... but the study was making waves when it was published a while back. I hope one the many scientists/doctors on Islamica can chime in here.

[zzze]

Yeah, the article is on BBC News.

I would say most gay Muslims grapple with this, unless they have abolutely no regard for their religion. The struggle, for me, shows it's (normally) not a choice. Few people would tear themselves up over something that they can change. I think it's one of life's greatest tests. Having said that, though, some reputable shayookh have said that it's a disease of the heart and can be 'cured' through extensive purification/ other means. I know of people who have been cured (of assumed life-long 'illnesses') by the Will of Allah through similar means...so anything is possible.

This post has been edited by zzze: 09 May 2010 - 12:37 PM

[MossadConspiracy]

salam

if your brother likes powerful dominant older women then you can help him find some divorced broad and that way he can be satisfied and happy without breaking your parents heart

i hope it works out

ws

dreamdeferred said:

There's another theory out there that posits a biological cause.... based on brain imaging that show a marked/predictable difference in the brains of gay men (don't remember the details).

I don't know how credible this theory is given that we know the brain undergoes structural changes with use (neuroplasticity).... but the study was making waves when it was published a while back. I hope one the many scientists/doctors on Islamica can chime in here.

salam

i really cant go to google and read for 35 minutes then rehash it here like its off the top of my head

so i'll just say- i did read some studies about certain regions of the brain looking different in gay guys compared to straight guys. I cant remember any of the details, but it wasnt anything definitive. I also remember reading something about hair whorls and finger length being predictors too, with gay guys having statistically significant differences in the occurrences of different variants there. I went to a lecture once where they talked about the uterine environment playing a role.

I think all of these studies really just tell us that there probably is a biological aspect to it, but that it isnt entirely predictable and mechanistically its all very poorly understood. Also something complex like sexual behavior has to have social and psychological components.

ws

[SugarB]

MossadConspiracy said:

salam

if your brother likes powerful dominant older women then you can help him find some divorced broad and that way he can be satisfied and happy without breaking your parents heart

i hope it works out

ws

welll look who showed their narrow minded head. obviously you dont know what your talking about so maybe you should shut it.