[zeyneddine]

the_wrong_guy said:

Dear Glasgow and AbdurRaheem,

There are people out there for whom it is a 'do or die' situation. They choose to 'do' rather than 'die', which is perfectly fine according to the principles of Fiqh.

Just because we haven't been through the same situation does not mean that it doesn't exist. Some prostitutes sin out of choice, others sin for lack of one. What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions without knowing their circumstances? What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions even if we're aware of their exact circumstances? We all know it is a sin. There is no debate on that.

Our job is to convey the message; not judge them according to it. Nahnu duat; la qudhat.

Bro, just to be fair, I do think there are alternative avenues that can be explored by the women who sell their bodies. I feel for the plight of a lot of these women; there are multiple documentaries on the condition of the prostitutes in Pakistan. However, even though it is a vicious cycle, those with faith can try to break the cycle and move away from the sins of this business. Let alone the sinning (though from our eyes this should be the paramount reason), just the abuse these women face should be more than enough motivation for them to get out.

[AbdurRaheem]

the_wrong_guy said:

Dear Glasgow and AbdurRaheem,

There are people out there for whom it is a 'do or die' situation. They choose to 'do' rather than 'die', which is perfectly fine according to the principles of Fiqh.

Just because we haven't been through the same situation does not mean that it doesn't exist. Some prostitutes sin out of choice, others sin for lack of one. What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions without knowing their circumstances? What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions even if we're aware of their exact circumstances? We all know it is a sin. There is no debate on that.

Our job is to convey the message; not judge people according to it. Nahnu du'at; la qudhat.

bro, I agree with you... I wasnt passing judgment; merely illustrating the fact that Allah [subhanahu wa ta'ala] does give us a choice. I suppose I still disagree with the 'do-or-die' case for prostitution. For alot of other sins, yes the life-and-death situation changes things a bit. Even in one or two isolated incidents, selling one's body could be understandable.

But to habitually and recurringly engage in prostitution and 'choose' (please notice the quotes) to earn rizq this way... I disagree. There are other 'career' options.

[Glasgow]

the_wrong_guy said:

What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions without knowing their circumstances? What benefit is there in us passing judgment on their actions even if we're aware of their exact circumstances? We all know it is a sin. There is no debate on that.

Neither of us were passing judgment on anybody.

And I also disagree that prostitution is a 'do or die' situation.

Eating Haram (pork/dog meat etc) - normally a sin - is only permissible when one is on the brink of death and there is a genuine fear of dying of starvation. And even then one is only allowed to eat us much that will allow them to survive, and not eat till their stomach is full.

Allah knows best.

[nunyobeezwax]

Some women may have a choice, but they don't even know about it because they were sold into prostitution early, or their mothers were prostitutes or something else. There are a million reasons why a woman (or man) could be a prostitute; don't assume they all have the luxury of just walking away. Ever heard of pimps? Yea, they're the big bad guys who rape and beat their "property" (i.e. the prostitutes). Some women couldn't get out even if they wanted to.

Several years ago my dadi (grandma) told me a story that she read a long time ago. It was a true story and was set in 17th or 18th century somewhere in the Muslim world. She cried as she told it, as did I because it was so sad. Just to sum it up: a woman fell into prostitution at a very young age, and as she got older she came to learn that it was wrong (also, she was from a Muslim family). She couldn't leave as she had no knowledge of how to get out, children to feed, and her pimp was keeping her from leaving. After many many years when she was old and "useless" in her trade, she was finally freed. She spent the rest of her days at the Prophet's Mosque in Madinah, crying and praying to God to forgive her lifetime of sin. Eventually she went blind because she cried so much and a large part of the story was her dua, it was heartbreaking.

After the tsunami a few years ago people came to the affected areas and began kidnapping children to sell or use them as sex slaves. How will a child who was 8 or 9 know how to get out? By the time he/she is older, their self esteem and self worth will be so low that they won't have the will to leave. Also, read the book called "The Natashas."

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Natashas-Inside-New-Global-Trade/dp/1559707798/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238174905&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: The Natashas: Inside the New Global Sex Trade: Victor Malarek: Your Store[/ame]

Never judge these women, even when you know their story. Any of us could have been in her position.

[Timbit]

oh, look who it is.

the_wrong_guy said:

Dear Timbit,

We're all fobs and we suck at communication, so don't be so hard on us for not expressing our thoughts using the exact same words as you.

i didn't think that's what i was doing.

the_wrong_guy said:

- People have varying abilities.
- Allah tests people according to their abilities.
- Therefore, different people have to go through different kinds of tests in this life.
- In the Akhirah, judgment will depend on the nature of the tests one had to go through in this world. Simply put, in desified terms, we're going to say that the marking is going to be easy if the test was difficult, and the marking is going to be relatively tough if the test was easy.
- When we see someone else going through a difficult test, we realize the triviality of our own tests compared to theirs, which leads us to an improved consciousness of many of the blessings we have in this life (including having it easier than many people out there), and ultimately we're more thankful for whatever we have. I don't think there's anything wrong in it. Having it easier should make us more thankful.

yes, put that way, it does make sense.
if you accept all those points as true.

suffice it to say i don't think islamica is the place for calling into question simple theological truths and i regretted making that initial post shortly after i made it.
so maybe i'll catch you online sometime.

[TrentReznor858]

Glasgow said:

This one has a problem admitting he's wrong.

Um, I wasnt wrong about anything.

[the_wrong_guy]

zeyneddine said:

Bro, just to be fair, I do think there are alternative avenues that can be explored by the women who sell their bodies. I feel for the plight of a lot of these women; there are multiple documentaries on the condition of the prostitutes in Pakistan. However, even though it is a vicious cycle, those with faith can try to break the cycle and move away from the sins of this business. Let alone the sinning (though from our eyes this should be the paramount reason), just the abuse these women face should be more than enough motivation for them to get out.

AbdurRaheem said:

bro, I agree with you... I wasnt passing judgment; merely illustrating the fact that Allah [subhanahu wa ta'ala] does give us a choice. I suppose I still disagree with the 'do-or-die' case for prostitution. For alot of other sins, yes the life-and-death situation changes things a bit. Even in one or two isolated incidents, selling one's body could be understandable.

But to habitually and recurringly engage in prostitution and 'choose' (please notice the quotes) to earn rizq this way... I disagree. There are other 'career' options.

Glasgow said:

Neither of us were passing judgment on anybody.

And I also disagree that prostitution is a 'do or die' situation.

Eating Haram (pork/dog meat etc) - normally a sin - is only permissible when one is on the brink of death and there is a genuine fear of dying of starvation. And even then one is only allowed to eat us much that will allow them to survive, and not eat till their stomach is full.

Allah knows best.

Jazakumullahu khayran for your responses. Bros, I wasn't making a blanket statement about prostitution; I was just trying to say that some prostitutes might be doing it because they're faced with a 'do or die' situation. I can safely say that that usually isn't the case, but still, I think we ought to make some room for such people.

When you have no job, no support and kids to feed, it sometimes does become a 'do or die' situation IMO. [In simple Fiqhi terms, 'necessity' is defined as a situation involving the fear of loss of life or limb.] And since the mafia, etc. are also involved in such businesses, running away becomes even more difficult.

And moving aside from textbook rulings, once we really get into the real fiqh of the entire situation, we find that there are several factors responsible for making people get into this business, and also for making it extremely difficult for those who've gotten into it to get out of it. So if we are to fight prostitution, our fight is essentially going to be against the cultural and socio-political factors that force people to take up prostitution as a means of making a living.

Perhaps some of us, especially those who live in Muslim countries, can involve ourselves in such noble works. I think some TJ and Jamat e Islami brothers and sisters have tried to take their da'wah to 'red light districts', but I'm not sure how successful they've been.

[ChotooMotoo]

the_wrong_guy said:

So if we are to fight prostitution, our fight is essentially going to be against the cultural and socio-political factors that force people to take up prostitution as a means of making a living.

Perhaps some of us, especially those who live in Muslim countries, can involve ourselves in such noble works. I think some TJ and Jamat e Islami brothers and sisters have tried to take their da'wah to 'red light districts', but I'm not sure how successful they've been.

Probably not very successful. Prostitution is a symptom, not a cause of social disease. If there was no demand for prostitution, it wouldn't exist. Lots of people conveniently ignore this, however, and focus all their attention on the prostitutes and ignore their customers.

[Jamroll]

ChotooMotoo said:

If there was no demand for prostitution, it wouldn't exist.

Whilst you are perfectly correct in this statement, we often hear or read this line. The users of such statements often ignore that this can be applied to absolutely anything. There is always supply and demand with any product. If you want to eradicate something, you have to take a two-pronged approach - cut the supply, and penalise the demand.

[TrentReznor858]

AbdurRaheem said:

Perhaps these prostitutes didnt know about this, or their tawakkul is flawed, which is why they think they 'have no choice'.
There's always a choice.
And llah knows best.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Its real easy for some spoiled sheltered mullah wannabe to post on the internet about home some poor woman has some sort of choice when it comes to selling her body in order to put a roof over her head and food in her babies mouths. Grow up and get out more thanks.

[Sabr_wa_Shukr]

TrentReznor858 said:

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Its real easy for some spoiled sheltered mullah wannabe to post on the internet about home some poor woman has some sort of choice when it comes to selling her body in order to put a roof over her head and food in her babies mouths. Grow up and get out more thanks.

you seem very bitter, frustrated and agitated today. everything ok?

[Jamroll]

They call prostitution the "world's oldest profession" with good reason. It's always been around, and always will be around. Perhaps there are some women who choose to go into the profession but they have to be like, a one-in-a-million exception. Most prostitutes are exploited, manipulated, used and abused by unscrupulous men (and I'm not even talking about their customers). They're bought and sold like cattle. They have no worth other than the price their bodies can fetch in the market. No one (except rare exceptions) chooses to live like that.

[the_wrong_guy]

ChotooMotoo said:

Probably not very successful. Prostitution is a symptom, not a cause of social disease. If there was no demand for prostitution, it wouldn't exist. Lots of people conveniently ignore this, however, and focus all their attention on the prostitutes and ignore their customers.

When I said that "if we are to fight prostitution", what I meant was forced prostitution, not.. err.. willful prostitution. It's kind of difficult for me to explain what's on my mind. I basically want to say that if someone is facing a situation where they are being forced to consider prostitution, or if a prostitute wants to leave her profession, Muslim communities should consider it an obligation upon themselves to provide an appropriate support mechanism to such people.

I hope that makes sense.

[lionofusa]

TrentReznor858 said:

You think these women would sleep with random men they dont know for money if they didnt have to? Wow, thats really........sad. You need to get out more.

I guess this is my first posting on this wonderful site. I have been a Police Officer for over 30 years in the USA and I have worked the Vice Unit--Prostitutes. I can not broad brush all the women. Some do it for money and others are forced into it. With this said, my only comment is that ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM do not allow such behavior.

OUR WONDERFUL ALLAH cries every time a woman sells herself.

INSHALLAH

TONY
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA USA

[TrentReznor858]

lionofusa said:

I guess this is my first posting on this wonderful site. I have been a Police Officer for over 30 years in the USA and I have worked the Vice Unit--Prostitutes. I can not broad brush all the women. Some do it for money and others are forced into it. With this said, my only comment is that ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM do not allow such behavior.

OUR WONDERFUL ALLAH cries every time a woman sells herself.

INSHALLAH

TONY
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA USA

You were a cop for 30 years yet you cant put together a coherent sentence to save your life. I guess that makes sense.

[EirinnMoChroi]

Glasgow said:

There is no such thing as sinning out of necessity.

Theres no such thing as shooting up heroin out of necessity, theres no such thing as drinking a beer out of necessity. However, prostitution sometimes ISNT a choice. Im not talking about human trafficking (I dont consider that sin. Thats rape and kidnapping) im talking about mothers with kids who have no other means of finance whatsoever.

Its like people who spit at the homeless and say "get a job, you bum." It seems so easy unless you are actually in that situation. Sometimes just "getting a job" isnt "so easy"

lionofusa said:

I guess this is my first posting on this wonderful site. I have been a Police Officer for over 30 years in the USA and I have worked the Vice Unit--Prostitutes. I can not broad brush all the women. Some do it for money and others are forced into it. With this said, my only comment is that ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM do not allow such behavior.

OUR WONDERFUL ALLAH cries every time a woman sells herself.

INSHALLAH

TONY
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA USA

I dont understand...

Allah cries and that Islam does not support prostitution...but then you just admitted that some women are forced into prostitution.

Trafficked people, for example, are forced into prostitution but I dont think thats anything on Islam. I could be trafficked and it wouldnt matter how powerful my deen is. I could be the most devoted Muslim on the face of the earth and still be a victim of sex trafficking. Therefore, I think your post would deal more with women who are prostitutes but really dont need to be. Women with doors still open. Women whose doors have been locked shut have no other choice and that, to me, is not their sin. Its the sin of the people who kidnapped them and forced them into prostitution through drug use, abuse and death threats.

Maybe im just not understanding what you mean. Let me know if thats the case.

This post has been edited by IrishMuslimah: 02 January 2010 - 10:30 PM
Reason for edit: This was automatically merged to prevent double-posting.

[Rambo]

women are weak creatures, thats why evil men take advantage of them everywhere. Why Allah made them like this? i dont know. I wish i could do some thing about it.

[nunyobeezwax]

Rambo said:

women are weak creatures, thats why evil men take advantage of them everywhere. Why Allah made them like this? i dont know. I wish i could do some thing about it.

I would say that because of this, men are the weak creatures. The women who endure it are strong.


For anyone who would like a glimpse at reality I would like to recommend watching "Lilja 4ever" (you can even watch it on video.google.com or youtube). It tells the story of a young teenage Estonian girl who is abandoned by her mother, raped, then tricked and sold into the sex slave trade. The movie was mentioned in a book called The Natashas which I also highly recommend. Lilja 4ever is shown across the former Soviet Union in hopes that it will educate potential victims of the sex trade and help protect them.

I used to question how a girl could be so stupid as to be tricked into something like that, but the movie and the book makes it clear that it can happen to even the most clever girls

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrQBJNDMgo"]YouTube- LILYA 4-EVER TRAILER[/ame]

[jigglypottamus]

thejellymill said:

a book called The Natashas which I also highly recommend.

Oh yeah like I didnt see that one coming

[nunyobeezwax]

so what?


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Natashas-Inside-New-Global-Trade/dp/1559707356]Amazon.com: The Natashas: Inside the New Global Sex Trade (9781559707350): Victor Malarek: Books[/ame]