What are the differences between Imams & Prophets within Shi'aism

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Concerning point 1, Shia's don't claim that.

Shias believe the status of Hazrat Ali (RA) is higher than the status of the nabis who were not given kitabs.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Shias believe the status of Hazrat Ali (RA) is higher than the status of the nabis who were not given kitabs.

Which Shias? Sources?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Which Shias? Sources?

See the following

Originally Posted by Khomeini

"Verily, the imam has a praised station, a supreme rank and universal sovereignty to which authority and command submit all the atoms of this universe. And of the imperatives of our religion is that our imams occupy a praised station which is accessible by neither a close angel nor a sent prophet.... And in accordance with the narrations and traditions that are in our possession, the greatest Messenger and the imams, peace be on them, were light before the existence of this world, then Allah made them surround His Throne. It has been related to them that they have states with Allah which are encompassed by neither a close angel nor a sent prophet."

...

"The teachings of the imams are like the teachings of the Qur'an. They do not apply to one particular generation, but rather to everyone in every age and place until the Day of Judgment.''

(Taken from his book "The Islamic Government", 1979)

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Shias believe the status of Hazrat Ali (RA) is higher than the status of the nabis who were not given kitabs.

Actually, their majority opinion is worse than this. It is that Ali [ra] is superior to ALL of the Prophets, aside from Prophet Muhammad [s].

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Actually, their majority opinion is worse than this. It is that Ali [ra] is superior to ALL of the Prophets, aside from Prophet Muhammad [s].

Yeah, see my above post.

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by Jinnzaman

Which Shias? Sources?

The Shia Ulema believe that the position of Infallible Imam (i.e. Imamah) is higher than the position of Messenger or Prophet (i.e. Risalah and Nabuwwah). Al-Islam.org, the popular Shia website, declares that “the office of Imamate is a higher and more exalted office than prophethood.” (Lesson Number 17, Al-Islam.org : Imamate and Leadership)

Thus, the Shia Ulema believe that their twelve Infallible Imams are superior to all of the Prophets, except Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). They argue that Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is superior to the twelve Imams not because he was a Prophet, but rather “since Prophet Muhammad was an Imam during his time as well.” (Shia Encyclopedia, “Imamat vs. Prophethood,” Part 1, Al-Islam.org: Imamat vs. Prophethood (Part I))

The Shia belief can be stated in equation form:

Prophet Muhammad > 12 Imams > All of the other Prophets

Imamah > Prophethood

There should be absolutely no confusion on this issue; this view is the dominant view of the Shia Ulema.

Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Fazel Lankarani, one of the Head Ayatollahs in the Shia Seminary in Qum, issued the following statements on his official website:

Imam Ali (Alayhi Salam) is higher in rank than other prophets, because of his Imamate, but he is not higher in rank than the Prophet Muhammad (saws), because Muhammad (saws) was both Prophet and Imam.
Source: http://www.lankarani.org/English/faq/110q.html

This view is categorically stated in the Shia Encyclopedia:

The Shia further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or not) except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Source: Shia Encyclopedia, “Imamat vs. Prophethood,” Part 1, Shia Encyclopedia: Imamat vs. Prophethood (Part I)

In the book “Peshawar Nights”, the Shia scholar, Sultanu’l-Wa’izin Shirazi, says: “Since the holy prophet was superior to all other prophets Ali was also superior to them.” (Peshawar Nights, Peshawar Nights: Seventh Session)

The same view is held by the Shia Tafseer, also available on the Al-Islam.org website: “It means that a prophet is not necessarily an Imaam and Imaamat is an office of decidedly higher order…” (S.V. Mir Ali/Ayatollah Mahdi Puya Commentary of Verse 2:124, Al-Islam.org: Multilingual Quran)

In all of the authoratative books of the Shia, the recurring view is that the Imams are superior to the Prophets except Prophet Muhammad: “Imam ‘Ali and the other Imaams of Ahlul Bayt are believed by the Shi’as to be higher in rank than all prophets and messengers except the Prophet of Islam (s.a.w.)” (Shiism: Imaamate and Wilayah, p.96)

Ayatollah Khomeini declared: “And an essential tenet of our Shi’ite sect is that the Imams have a position which is reached neither by the angels nor by any commisioned messenger of God.” (Hukumat-i-Islami, p.52-53)

Of the four main Shia books of Hadith, Al-Kafi is considered the most reliable and authoratative. In it, we find the following Shia Hadith: “The Imams possess all the knowledge granted to the angels, prophets, and messengers.” (Al-Kulaini, Al-Kafi, p.255)

Another narration in Al-Kafi says: “Signs of the prophets are possessed by the Imams.” (Al-Kafi, p.231)

Allamah Baqir Al-Majlisi says about the Imams: “Their preference [is] over the prophets and all the people.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol 26, Chapter 6) He further stated: “…our Imams are higher [and] better than the rest of the prophets…they are more knowledgeable than the prophets…this is the main opinion of the Imami (Shia), and is only rejected by one who is ignorant about the traditions.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.297)

In the propaganda book titled “Peshawar Nights”, the Shia scholar Shirazi mentions the following about Ibrahim:

Allah intended to make his rank more exalted. Since prophethood and the title of Khalil (friend) did not apparently rank a higher rank, the office of Imamate was the only office of a higher order to which even a Prophet of Allah could be entrusted…That Ali attained the rank of prophethood can be proven by the reference to the Hadith of Manzila (Tradition Regarding Ranks)

Source: Peshawar Nights, Al-Islam.org: Fourth Session, Part 2

This same view is held by Allamah Majlisi, who even admits that the Shia “might as well” call their Imams to be Prophets:

On the whole, after admission of the fact that the Imams are not prophets, we are bound to acknowledge the fact that they are superior to all Prophets and Awsiya (legatees) except our Prophet (salutations and peace upon him and his family). To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet. Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah.

Source: Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82

Syed Ali Milani, another leading Shia personality, wrote an entire book entitled“The Preference of the Imams over the Prophets (A.S.)” This book is available on the following Shia website: Shiaweb

[jinnzaman]

Kufrtastic!

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Which Shias? Sources?

Aside from the sources IbnM & Jaysh provided, I went to an Ithna'Asheri madressa for a period (to learn Qur'an) and I was taught that all imams were greater in status than all but 5 nabis (iirc - Nabi Dawud (AS), Nabi Musa (AS), Nabi Isa (AS), Nabi Nuh (AS) and Nabeyuna Muhammad (SAW)).

Not sure about the belief that they're greater than all nabis except the Prophet (SAW), but what's been posted is pretty convincing.

(fwiw, my Qur'an teacher was the person who runs al-islam.org

edit: I just want to clarify that though I obviously disagree with the Shia view, I do respect my former teachers, their families, and many members of their community)

[Khairan]

It's strange to me that this is something that gets people worked up. Why care?

[SyedShoaib786]

edit* the shias i know dont believe that lol.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Khairan

It's strange to me that this is something that gets people worked up. Why care?

Hmm, its only a basic issue of aqeedah. Nothing important or anything like that!

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by SyedShoaib786

edit* the shias i know dont believe that lol.

The ones living in the west usually dont know that these are the beliefs of their religion, just like many sunni muslims dont know that chess is haram. (I know there are differences of opinion on chess whether it is with gambling or not, etc etc. but i am just making the point that the vast majority of muslims don't even know that this is a part of our religion and would laugh at it if some random person told them that there are prohibitions against chess.)

Originally Posted by Khairan

It's strange to me that this is something that gets people worked up. Why care?

The shahadah has two parts: (1) the belief in the oneness of God, and (2) that the Prophet [s] is the final messenger of Allah [swt].

These are the two fundamentals of our religion. So how can you expect us *not* to take serious issue with this?

Can you imagine the ruckus the shias would create if the "Wahhabis" declared that the Saudi king is superior to all the prophets?

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Hmm, its only a basic issue of aqeedah. Nothing important or anything like that!

Aqeedah isn't that important to some people. donchaknow!!

[SyedShoaib786]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

The ones living in the west usually dont know that these are the beliefs of their religion, just like many sunni muslims dont know that chess is haram. (I know there are differences of opinion on chess whether it is with gambling or not, etc etc. but i am just making the point that the vast majority of muslims don't even know that this is a part of our religion and would laugh at it if some random person told them that there are prohibitions against chess.)

alhamdulilah, in this case its a good thing

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Hmm, its only a basic issue of aqeedah. Nothing important or anything like that!

Yeah, I get that it's "aqeedah," but again, WHY? In comparison to central issues such as belief in the Qur'an, the Messengerhood of Muhammad, and the Oneness of God, how is the issue of which historic leaders are more or less important at all relevant?

What is so important about it that it warrants such an important place in your aqeedah?

Originally Posted by Jaysh

The shahadah has two parts: (1) the belief in the oneness of God, and (2) that the Prophet [s] is the final messenger of Allah [swt].

These are the two fundamentals of our religion. So how can you expect us *not* to take serious issue with this?

Can you imagine the ruckus the shias would create if the "Wahhabis" declared that the Saudi king is superior to all the prophets?

That's all fair enough, but I don't understand why believing that Imams are superior to some Prophets or what have you violates those principles.

Shias believe both of the things you've stated above -- Muhammad IS the Khatim un-Nabi. You clearly think that the importance shias place on Imams violates this somehow, but I don't see the "how."


Speaking for myself, for example, I don't really see how I as a shia would even put such a belief (that Imams are superior to Prophets) into practice. I mean, let's say I did believe that -- how does it change what I do in my day? I don't think it really does, and therefore I'm not sure how it could possibly have an impact upon me as a Muslim. As it happens, I DON'T believe this, but we all know I'm kind of weird about what I believe anyway and beyond that I've never really bothered to *develop* such a belief because, again, I don't see how it affects or impacts my Islam. Do you understand what I'm saying?