[TariqBinSleepin]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Because as I pointed out, hadith at the higher levels of grading are strongly authenticated and have evidence establishing their authenticity. It's not comparable.

To use a Jaysh-ish analogy to simplify things, it's like the kid next door telling you to take out the trash, vs your mom telling you to take out the trash. You tell the kid next door to get lost. Would someone then draw the conclusion that because you tell the kid next door to get lost, you're going to tell your mom to get lost when SHE tells you to take out the trash? No, because there's a different and strictly defined level of authority here.

The story can be used beneficially as a teaching tool, yes. But it's not an integral component of our faith. It's not something we'll be questioned about on the DOJ.

Having said that, I think it's disrespectful to call it "stupid," whether you believe it or not. That's different from critiquing perceived logical shortcomings or questioning its authenticity based on chain of narration.

I respect what you are saying and I agree, but you're missing my point. Its not about who is narrating the story. Its about the content. Its not about the kid or the mom, its about the TRASH. Is it really trash? Because there are many stories in our religion which might sound silly & absurd

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Having said that, I think it's disrespectful to call it "stupid," whether you believe it or not. That's different from critiquing perceived logical shortcomings or questioning its authenticity based on chain of narration.

Well, I wasn't calling the story stupid, I was calling the act stupid.

Put yourself in that position, I'd submit to anyone. A guy comes to your house and tells you that he ate an apple of yours, so you give him your daughter. Does that really seem like an appropriate response? Different time, whatever. Maybe I care more about my daughter who doesn't even exist yet too much to even consider doing such a thing, regardless of who the guy at the door is.

I mean, your wife carried this girl, she's spent her entire life with you, you've spent years taking care of her and loving her, so clearly the natural reaction is to hand her off to a stranger to engage in a lifelong commitment because he was honest about a 50 cent piece of fruit.

I would genuinely question your sanity if you thought that was appropriate in the least.

And I get the message of the story. I just think it's outlandish to suggest and in fact detracts from the message.

And as for "Oh look who we got as a result of the marriage" I'm sure the father knew that was going to happen when he promised the guy his daughter.

[Rida]

This other time during a Taraweeh Khutbah the translator gone on about this story: So a man was walking along a road. He was starving. He came upon a fence and on the other side of the fence there were rows and rows of apple trees. A branch of one of the trees was growing outside of the fence and dropping apples onto the ground. The man looked around, knowing it was stealing, he picked up the apple and ate it. He continued walking until the guilt was too much for him to bear. He walked to the house of the apple tree owner to confess his sin. The man said, "I'll only forgive you if you marry my daughter" so the apple-eater said oki sure. The man said, "But my daughter is blind, deaf, mute and paralyzed" The apple-eater was shocked at this but regretfully agreed to the terms anyway. So the man lead him into some back room where they came upon a beautiful enchanting woman. "My daughter" said the man. The apple-eater was taken aback and confused. The man said "She is blind to seeing any bad, she is deaf to hearing any bad, she is mute to saying any bad and she is paralyzed from doing any bad."

The story forgot to include the part where this individual (ra) was first told to stay with the person for 3-4 years working in his garden to pay off the debt.
After closely observing the character of the individual (ra) for 4 years, the father then proposed the idea of having him marry his daughter.

was-Salaam

[TariqBinSleepin]

Originally Posted by Rida

The story forgot to include the part where this individual (ra) was first told to stay with the person for 3-4 years working in his garden to pay off the debt.
After closely observing the character of the individual (ra) for 4 years, the father then proposed the idea of having him marry his daughter.

was-Salaam

Yea I remember this as well.

[sumiyia]

i really like that first story.

[Timbit]

If your daughter's all that, you'd think you'd want to make sure she's married to somebody who you actually know... somebody who's not a poor, starving traveler.

But the story has a point, even if it wasn't clear from the way whoever told it to you told it. Some people are just not very good at communication. The other day, somebody told me a very elaborate story involving a woman who asks a shaykh about whether she needs to pay for some paper that some cheese she bought was wrapped in (and he started talking about hierarchy in Arab societies too) and I thought it was hilarious how he used this story to make the point. But at least I got the point, right? (It was that if I take care of the big things, the small things will take care of themselves. ) And so, I was like "I think you're right. Thanks! "

Anyway, these "stories" sometimes just require some suspension of logic. Don't you do that when watching (Indian) movies anyway? Just tell yourself that things worked differently in the ancient world and try to learn from the moral.

[kikar]

The way some 'ulema have of using examples to show the meaning of things are wicked....

but if you at islamic history, there are some stories that you think are whack, but you will realize that wow, now i get it later on. . . .

[SyedShoaib786]

the story is fabricated regarding imam e azam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah aley)

It is actually about the parents of Abdul Qadir Jilani (rahmatullah aley)

of course that isnt the only dialogue that took place, but it was the event that eventually led to their marriage...it is about truth and honesty, and if he hadn't gone to repent for his sin, we wouldn't have had the great reviver of our faith shaykh Abdul Qadir (ra)

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by TariqBinSleepin

I respect what you are saying and I agree, but you're missing my point. Its not about who is narrating the story. Its about the content. Its not about the kid or the mom, its about the TRASH. Is it really trash? Because there are many stories in our religion which might sound silly & absurd

First of all, we're not discussing the trash, we're discussing taking it out. The "content" in the analogy is the order, not the trash. The level of importance and credence given to the content is based on its source. Do you understand?

There are many stories in Hans Christian Andersen's collection of fairytales that sound silly or absurd. If we don't accept them as legitimate, does that mean we might be in danger of not accepting hadith?

[TariqBinSleepin]

Originally Posted by SyedShoaib786

the story is fabricated regarding imam e azam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah aley)

It is actually about the parents of Abdul Qadir Jilani (rahmatullah aley)

of course that isnt the only dialogue that took place, but it was the event that eventually led to their marriage...it is about truth and honesty, and if he hadn't gone to repent for his sin, we wouldn't have had the great reviver of our faith shaykh Abdul Qadir (ra)

I need to see some proof =\

[SyedShoaib786]

Originally Posted by TariqBinSleepin

I need to see some proof =\

of course...in my masjid another brother was telling us the same story but syaing it was imam shafi (ra) lol...happens a lot...inshaAllah ill find the proper isnad

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

First of all, we're not discussing the trash, we're discussing taking it out. The "content" in the analogy is the order, not the trash. The level of importance and credence given to the content is based on its source. Do you understand?

There are many stories in Hans Christian Andersen's collection of fairytales that sound silly or absurd. If we don't accept them as legitimate, does that mean we might be in danger of not accepting hadith?

Well, I agree with brother Tariq that the first reaction of people should not be disbelief.

Rather, it should be to simply ask: what is the source of this, without passing judgment on it until this is answered. And this is so as not to affirm something without the proof, as well as not to mock something that may in fact be true.

However, I was just saying something else, namely that we cannot expect the awwam to react in the ideal manner like that, so we should be soft on the people, and not try to lead them into saying words of disbelief.

Fi Aman Allah.

[xoxo]

some stories have a value that transcends the literal details of the story itself. i think people are failing to see the bigger picture here, (which is the lesson of the story), and are getting caught up in the details.

we see more fantastic stories in tv shows and movies and we sorta buy into those, but we tend to be critical of stories that relate to deen. i think it's a bit ironic. i myself used to question the authenticity of the stories our parents told us growing up, about the miracles that certain saints performed or whatever, but then i realized at a point that i shouldn't be a skeptic for the sake of being a skeptic.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Well, I agree with brother Tariq that the first reaction of people should not be disbelief.

I agree with that. I also don't necessarily disagree with accepting the story on faith, providing it doesn't contradict any Islamic principles.

What I disagree with is saying that we necessarily or even potentially impugn upon the integrity of the necessities of our religion by challenging the integrity of or refusing to accept possibly apocryphal tales on faith.

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Rather, it should be to simply ask: what is the source of this, without passing judgment on it until this is answered. And this is so as not to affirm something without the proof, as well as not to mock something that may in fact be true.

You've been reading too many fatawa. I think there's a serious danger of flowery speech becoming your trademark as much as pedantic speech is Jinnz's.

[heba]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

I
You've been reading too many fatawa. I think there's a serious danger of flowery speech becoming your trademark as much as pedantic speech is Jinnz's.

THANK YOU someone agrees with me