Saying Salam to the Opposite Gender

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Tell jinnzaman to stop labeling everything as eurocentric, and we'll talk.

Well, my example was relevant since people were taking a particular cultural construct and superimposing it upon fatwas. My point was that the cultural construct is subjective and you should be critical of it before assuming its a universally applicable mode of behavior.

I must assume, however, that everyone in this discussion says salams to men and women equally. It would be pretty hypocritical to say you don't believe in talking to the opposite gender, when you're doing it right here on Islamica.

Right, but thats irrelevant as well. The issue is not how Muslims behave but how they should behave.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Right, and there are plenty of Muslimahs who have non-Muslim boy friends, don't wear hijab, have pre-marital sex, gossip, backbite, spread rumors, etc. So not only is your example a bad one, its not even relevant to the judgment itself. Just because some Muslims don't follow a particular ruling doesn't make it halal or haram. If some Muslims don't pray fajr, that doesn't mean fajr isn't obligatory. If some Muslimahs dont wear hijab, that doesn't stop making of obligatory. If some Muslim males have non-Muslim girlfriends, that doesn't make it halal.

My point is that the cultural constructs of a society, while important in determining a legal judgment, are not the sole consideration.

You completely missed my point. Completely. It flew right over your head and into the rafters. I hope it doesn't poop on your head.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Well, my example was relevant since people were taking a particular cultural construct and superimposing it upon fatwas. My point was that the cultural construct is subjective and you should be critical of it before assuming its a universally applicable mode of behavior.

Which cultural construct would that be?

Right, but thats irrelevant as well. The issue is not how Muslims behave but how they should behave.

I don't see how it's irrelevant.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

You completely missed my point. Completely. It flew right over your head and into the rafters. I hope it doesn't poop on your head.

No, the point about the ruling prohibiting salam still stands even if people aren't applying it consistently.

If some people are eating non-dhabihah, doesn't make pork halal.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

No, the point about the ruling prohibiting salam still stands even if people aren't applying it consistently.

If some people are eating non-dhabihah, doesn't make pork halal.

Saying salams is not the same as eating pork, or drinking alcohol. People need to find better analogies. Why do you guys keep going to extremes in your analogies?

Didn't we agree like 3 pages ago that there was a difference of opinion on the matter? Why are we beating people up for saying salams then?

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Tell jinnzaman to stop labeling everything as eurocentric, and we'll talk.

he says that in things related to islamic jurisprudence

for all we know he could be eurocentric himself

as a matter of fact, being the resident fob, i'm the only person here who's not eurocentric

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Saying salams is not the same as eating pork, or drinking alcohol. People need to find better analogies. Why do you guys keep going to extremes in your analogies?

Didn't we agree like 3 pages ago that there was a difference of opinion on the matter? Why are we beating people up for saying salams then?

The common denominator in all of those actions I mentioned was that they were permissible or impermissible independently of the cultural context.

The issue isn't if there's ikhtilaaf, thats already been recognized, but the basis upon which people are critiquing those opinions. My point is that if you follow a faqih, fine and dandy, but don't critique another fatwa on improper grounds. The underlying reason for her argument was that the fatwa prohibiting salam isn't "practical" in this norm and is invalid. However, this cultural norm isn't a universal practice that should be superimposed upon the Shari'ah as a whole.

Sumiyia's had beef with the fact that some people don't say salam and ignore her, my point was that its a valid opinion. Then she went to sunnipath and improperly quoted a fatwa.

So if there's ikhtilaaf, there's ikhtilaaf. Why get all worked up if people follow a different fiqh? If you're going to critique them, you should first be able to cite the source of your own fiqh and if you can't, you have little grounds to critique others.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The common denominator in all of those actions I mentioned was that they were permissible or impermissible independently of the cultural context.

The issue isn't if there's ikhtilaaf, thats already been recognized, but the basis upon which people are critiquing those opinions. My point is that if you follow a faqih, fine and dandy, but don't critique another fatwa on improper grounds.

Sumiyia's had beef with the fact that some people don't say salam and ignore her, my point was that its a valid opinion. Then she went to sunnipath and improperly quoted a fatwa.

So if there's ikhtilaaf, there's ikhtilaaf. Why get all worked up if people follow a different fiqh? If you're going to critique them, you should first be able to cite the source of your own fiqh and if you can't, you have little grounds to critique others.

You should make a cliff notes versions every three pages in threads like this, especially for people with exploded brains like me.

Oh, and on boys/girls with non-muslim girl/boy friends. THERE ARE HALAL OPTIONS OUT THERE PEOPLE

[dreamdeferred]

Good job Islamica!

[shsh]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

You should make a cliff notes versions every three pages in threads like this, especially for people with exploded brains like me.

yeah. just two days i ago, i TOTALLY knew what was going on in here. since page 2, everythign has been flying over my head.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by shsh

yeah. just two days i ago, i TOTALLY knew what was going on in here. since page 2, everythign has been flying over my head.

the grocery store I worked at in Seattle had these huge sliding doors. WHo knows when, but at one point birds flew inside the store and made a nest in the rafters over the produce department. I never got a chance to check, but I wonder how many times they pooped on the produce...

[shsh]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

the grocery store I worked at in Seattle had these huge sliding doors. WHo knows when, but at one point birds flew inside the store and made a nest in the rafters over the produce department. I never got a chance to check, but I wonder how many times they pooped on the produce...

lmao. i love how this is totally irrelevant to my post but my post is still quoted


oh wait. it does have "flying" in common.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

THEIR etiquette, they have theirs, you have yours.....khatam

everyone needs to chill and stop hating on each others freedoms and way of life

But what I said is I used to think that way. I was just explaining my reasoning to you.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

but that's where there's a difference of opinion, right?


Responding to greeting other than salam

Sumiyia, here's where I'm a bit confused.. you keep saying salaams are ok in a businesslike/professional context when only what's necessary is said, but why would it then be rude for someone to not give salaams in a normal social situation?

Originally Posted by Timbit

That's what I said. Good qualities. A gem of a guy is a guy that has good qualities.

That's such an abstract question. Give an example.

What's an abstract question?

Originally Posted by Timbit

No, but it is here. Many people follow that line of reasoning. It's one of the reasons given for hijab by many, many scholars (and laypeople). Muslim women are precious gems which must be covered and kept protected and hidden from the sights of others. Just as you don't walk around displaying a diamond in your hand, you don't display your women. Or yourself if you are a woman.

Why is it necessarily the case here? The only property that is necessarily inherited through the metaphor is preciousness.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Why is it necessarily the case here? The only property that is necessarily inherited through the metaphor is preciousness.

MYYY PRECIOUUSSSSSSSS

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Sumiyia, here's where I'm a bit confused.. you keep saying salaams are ok in a businesslike/professional context when only what's necessary is said, but why would it then be rude for someone to not give salaams in a normal social situation?

i feel salaams are appropriate in both professional and social situations. if for their own spiritual reasons, some people feel uncomfortable with the idea of salaaming and its potentiality for fitna (which i still don't understand but whatever), then the salaams should still be conveyed in a business-like/professional manner, when only what is necessary is said, at least out of common courtesy and respect. this is not to say that it is obligatory upon every muslim to salaam every muslim they encounter. i think this type of greeting can be accomplished within a two second time frame, you say it and move on. eye contact need not be necessary. i really don't understand why people find this so confusing and hard to stomach? it's not rocket science.

i understand there's a difference of opinion and etc. i can understand why some people might disagree. i don't have the time to do any serious fatwa searching to please certain forum members (hi jinnz). and i'm sure there are more pressing matters anyway. the world won't end if some people decide to salaam or others refrain from salaaming, whatever their reasons may be. i'm not "imposing my eurocentric views on shariah." my real problem is not that people don't salaam me, it's the obsession muslim youth have, focusing on the minutae of gender relations when there's so much more out there that is more deserving of our attention. when i say muslim youth, i mean both men and women. i think to be able to get passed this obsession, people need to grow up and stop objectifying the other gender... and just see each other as people first.

lastly, hi spice please don't neg me