Saying Salam to the Opposite Gender

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

It was an analogy to allude to the notion that Muslimahs are precious diamonds.

No, we're human beings just like everybody else.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

aside from the social context, i don't see it working it all in the professional context. it would be very very hard to get things done if every third person just up and ignored me out of "respect." and from the discussion in this thread, i think there's a difference of opinion as far as the shari'ah goes as well. i don't think there's a clear cut ruling on completely ignoring a woman.

Again, you've taken the corporate environment and superimposed it on the Shari'ah when it should be the other way around, no?

If all corporations were hooters, I'm sure some people on this forum would be arguing that dressing modestly would be impractical.

There's a difference between saying a ruling is impractical and denying the legitimacy of the ruling itself.

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Again, you've taken the corporate environment and superimposed it on the Shari'ah when it should be the other way around, no?

If all corporations were hooters, I'm sure some people on this forum would be arguing that dressing modestly would be impractical.

There's a difference between saying a ruling is impractical and denying the legitimacy of the ruling itself.

so you're saying its a 'ruling' to ignore women completely and treat them like 'diamonds?'

and i don't recall saying any ruling was illegitimate.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

so you're saying its a 'ruling' to ignore women completely and treat them like 'diamonds?'

and i don't recall saying any ruling was illegitimate.

Yes. Keep them stuffed in security vaults in the darkest corner of your home. (Warning: I'm being facetious!)

No, in all seriousness, if you look at the opinions of the Hanafi and Hanbali 'Ulema on these matters, its fairly strict. I can't speak for the Shafi'i madhab, but the Maliki madhab is a bit more relax on these issues.

If you see a non-mahram according to a lot of traditional accounts, the interactions should be straight forward as professional and business like as possible. You say what you gotta say: nothing more and nothing less.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

i agree. ignoring someone is just rude. i find someone to be respectful if they address you properly instead of ignoring you.

Yep.


Sometimes these TJ people come knock on our door though. And if I open it, they talk to me for about 10 seconds.

Assalamu alaikum.
Walaikum assalam.
Is your dad home?
No.
Is your brother home?
No.
Tell them to come out InshaAllah. We're having a get-together.
InshaAllah.

That's it. They never look at me and stand about ten feet away.
I used to be offended by that, but I get the feeling it's not about me, but more about them. So now, out of respect for them, I just don't even open the door all the way, but kind of just stick my head out so they don't have to see most of me.

[amina9183]

Originally Posted by Timbit

No, we're human beings just like everybody else.

i dont see women as human beings just like everyone else, because Allah has made it pretty clear by the signs around us that we arent.

Allah tells us to stay in our houses and do pardah...and then look at everythign valuable in this world: diamonds, pearls, gold. Theyre nto just chilling out in the open...theyre way deep inside. Everything of value is hidden. The fact the He wants us hidden as well proves that the word "just" can never be placed infront of us. nobody ever says its "just" a diamond.

[thejellymill]

I know plenty of Muslimahs who are not precious diamonds, they wouldn't even qualify as smooth pebbles..

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Gender relations are defined by the Shari'ah, not by how rich white people behave.

what does race have anything to do with it.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Thinking somebody is a "valuable decoration piece" is objectifying them just as much as thinking they're "dollar-store" material.

When someone is referred to as "a diamond in the rough," do you think that person should be insulted? Or what about "a gem of a guy?"

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

When someone is referred to as "a diamond in the rough," do you think that person should be insulted? Or what about "a gem of a guy?"

No, I think those idiomatic expressions mean the same thing as "one in a million." You're saying that that particular individual is unique and special because of their good qualities.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Timbit

No, I think those idiomatic expressions mean the same thing as "one in a million." You're saying that that particular individual is unique and special because of their good qualities.

That was why I cited "gem of a guy," which doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

What's the difference between comparing a single person to a gem and comparing a group of people to gems? Could a group of people not all share in common a particular trait that makes them as precious as gems?

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by thejellymill

I know plenty of Muslimahs who are not precious diamonds, they wouldn't even qualify as smooth pebbles..

The secret to finding a real Muslimah is to bite her to see if she's really made out of gold.

what does race have anything to do with it.

Well, people are taking their values from corporate America which is predominantly comprised of rich white males.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

That was why I cited "gem of a guy," which doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

What's the difference between comparing a single person to a gem and comparing a group of people to gems? Could a group of people not all share in common a particular trait that makes them as precious as gems?

What do you think it means then?

Theoretically, perhaps they could, but not if that trait is just their sex (and shared religion).

Also, the former don't have the same implications as the latter: if women are diamonds, then they're precious commodities which are coveted. And so you need to possess them.

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Yes. Keep them stuffed in security vaults in the darkest corner of your home. (Warning: I'm being facetious!)

No, in all seriousness, if you look at the opinions of the Hanafi and Hanbali 'Ulema on these matters, its fairly strict. I can't speak for the Shafi'i madhab, but the Maliki madhab is a bit more relax on these issues.

If you see a non-mahram according to a lot of traditional accounts, the interactions should be straight forward as professional and business like as possible. You say what you gotta say: nothing more and nothing less.

and that's fine. that's all i'm asking. if you keep it professional and businesslike, you're probably not going to ignore them completely. a professional/business-like salaam is all i ask. i'm not saying give me a hug and kiss on top of it or something. it's two words. you say it and move on.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Timbit

What do you think it means then?

It means they're a person of beautiful character

Originally Posted by Timbit

Theoretically, perhaps they could, but not if that trait is just their sex (and shared religion).

Why not?

Originally Posted by Timbit

Also, the former don't have the same implications as the latter: if women are diamonds, then they're precious commodities which are coveted. And so you need to possess them.

Do you think that when a metaphor is used, all properties of the objects that form the metaphor in question must be analogous?

Like, if someone is a "mountain of a man," do they need to have billy goats climbing on them and people skiing down them?

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yep.


Sometimes these TJ people come knock on our door though. And if I open it, they talk to me for about 10 seconds.

Assalamu alaikum.
Walaikum assalam.
Is your dad home?
No.
Is your brother home?
No.
Tell them to come out InshaAllah. We're having a get-together.
InshaAllah.

That's it. They never look at me and stand about ten feet away.
I used to be offended by that, but I get the feeling it's not about me, but more about them. So now, out of respect for them, I just don't even open the door all the way, but kind of just stick my head out so they don't have to see most of me.

just because you feel they're being rude doesnt mean they intend on being rude

you have been part of this community long enough to acknowledge all the confusion and limitations that exist

people practice at different levels and that creates confusion on how we should approach other people

the guy that chose to "ignore" sumiyia, we dont know what was going in his head, for all we know he could be thinking "should i salam her too, what if she's one of those fundoos, she'll probably slap me or do a 100 kicks on my face"

its also analogous to how we refuse a handshake with the opposite gender, if they're non-muslims, they get offended no matter how you explain your cultural limitations