Shariah and the Protection of Lineage

[Timbit]

Okay, go read wheelwork's most recent posts here:
http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/cu...y-names-2.html

And then tell me if what he said is true or not.



I only ask 'cause I would like to give my hypothetical kids brand new last names. So I wanna know if I can do that, Islamically. I'm gonna go ask on SunniPath.

[sixpakistan]

Lineage is a part of identity, and there has to be a way of preserving it. And lineage in Islam is definitely patrilineal. Why is there a problem with that? Do you not like having your father's name? Do you feel like it's a manifestation of sexist oppression?

Is there an alternate system of preserving lineage you'd prefer to see in place?

I don't know if there'd be anything necessarily haram about not preserving the man's name in the traditional fashion, as long as your husband approved. Of course, there probably aren't many guys who'd be OK with that. And your kids might resent you for it at some point in their lives. :P

Anyway.. if you're really interested, ask on Sunnipath.

[Timbit]

sixpakistan said

Of course, there probably aren't many guys who'd be OK with that. And your kids might resent you for it at some point in their lives. :P

Anyway.. if you're really interested, ask on Sunnipath.

Hmmm. Single fo' lyfe then, I guess.

And the kids can always change their names once they're legally allowed to. Though they'd be major disappointments to me if they did.

[sixpakistan]

Timbit said

Hmmm. Single fo' lyfe then, I guess.

I suspect that you will eventually find yourself compromising on this ideal.

Timbit said

And the kids can always change their names once they're legally allowed to. Though they'd be major disappointments to me if they did.

Why would it be disappointing that they'd want to take their father's name?

[Timbit]

sixpakistan said

I suspect that you will eventually find yourself compromising on this ideal.



Why would it be disappointing that they'd want to take their father's name?

Probably. It'd be silly for me to say I'd never compromise on this particular thing. We have to compromise on a lot of things in life. I could perhaps understand if my hypothetical husband would want to give his kids his last name, but... I would ideally not like to take it for myself. This is why I'd suggest making a new last name for the whole family. It might work (I know Muslim people who've done it). If not, I'd have to compromise, yeah. I don't think I'd let it be a total dealbreaker.

And looooove makes you do crazy things.

It'd be majorly disappointing if after being raised by a feminist mother, they wanted to embrace the patriarchy. I'd be like "Ugly kids. After all I did for you?! "

EDIT: But... I dunno. I guess we all want kids who're extensions of ourselves?
EDIT2: I want a spouse who's an extension of myself too. If I could marry myself, I'd never be disappointed.

[zakk]

oh goodness, woman, your children are not an extension of yourself. trust me, i know.

anything weird they do I blame on their father's genes.

[Timbit]

zakk said

oh goodness, woman, your children are not an extension of yourself. trust me, i know.

anything weird they do I blame on their father's genes.

I know, but I'd want them to be.
I'd want them to be little Mini-mes.

And my mom does the exact same thing, haha. She's always saying how all of us have bad habits which are all just like our dad's.

[sixpakistan]

Timbit said

Probably. It'd be silly for me to say I'd never compromise on this particular thing. We have to compromise on a lot of things in life. I could perhaps understand if my hypothetical husband would want to give his kids his last name, but... I would ideally not like to take it for myself.

You don't have to take your husband's last name, Islamically (though again, this might be a dealbreaker for a lot of guys in the West.. they're going to think you're the contentious sort :P)

Timbit said

This is why I'd suggest making a new last name for the whole family. It might work (I know Muslim people who've done it).

That wouldn't preserve lineal identity, though

Timbit said

It'd be majorly disappointing if after being raised by a feminist mother, they wanted to embrace the patriarchy. I'd be like "Ugly kids. After all I did for you?! "

It's highly unlikely that if/when you have kids insha'Allah, they're going to grow up sharing all the exact same views and sentiments that you have at the age of 21 (it's very possible your views will change or shift one way or another in the future as well)

Timbit said

EDIT: But... I dunno. I guess we all want kids who're extensions of ourselves?

Kids grow up into their own people. You can't seek to control every aspect of their psyche.. you just give them the basics and some boundaries at a young age & teach them the best you can. It's unfair to expect them to share all of your ideas, though obviously some ideas are more important than others to us as Muslims.

You should also remember that your spouse is going to be contributing to the development of their identity as well, not just you.

Timbit said

EDIT2: I want a spouse who's an extension of myself too. If I could marry myself, I'd never be disappointed.

now THAT is an unhealthy expectation

[Timbit]

sixpakistan said

You don't have to take your husband's last name, Islamically (though again, this might be a dealbreaker for a lot of guys in the West.. they're going to think you're the contentious sort :P)

Wouldn't marry them then.
Well, I dunno if it'd be a dealbreaker for me. I mean, it's not something I'd be happy about doing but it depends on the guy, really.

sixpakistan said

That wouldn't preserve lineal identity, though

Who cares though? Really?

sixpakistan said

It's highly unlikely that if/when you have kids insha'Allah, they're going to grow up sharing all the exact same views and sentiments that you have at the age of 21 (it's very possible your views will change or shift one way or another in the future as well)

I know they might change. But I doubt they'll change all that much. And if my kids were to be at 21 like how I am at 21, I'd be very happy.

sixpakistan said

You should also remember that your spouse is going to be contributing to the development of their identity as well, not just you.

Can solve this by just marrying myself.

Actually, I think maybe I should marry somebody really fundamentalist. And then I can be super-liberal. So our kids would be fairly balanced.

sixpakistan said

now THAT is an unhealthy expectation

It's not an expectation. It'd just be cool if I could marry myself.

[sixpakistan]

Timbit said

Who cares though? Really?

All heterosexual males.

Timbit said

Actually, I think maybe I should marry somebody really fundamentalist. And then I can be super-liberal. So our kids would be fairly balanced.

I will refrain from the temptation to speculate on who you might have in mind

Timbit said

It's not an expectation. It'd just be cool if I could marry myself.

I'm really glad I'm not married to myself. That would suck.

[Timbit]

sixpakistan said

All heterosexual males.

Why?

sixpakistan said

I will refrain from the temptation to speculate on who you might have in mind

I don't have anybody particular in mind.
And this part of the discussion ends right here.

sixpakistan said

I'm really glad I'm not married to myself. That would suck.

Yeah, but see, I have an interesting personality. I'd keep myself entertained.

[sally]

what if you adopt a child and have no information on his/her lineage, can you just give them your husbands last name

i wanna adopt babies! iAAAAAAAa

[psychoteddybear]

i don't see why this matters so much to people...

[sixpakistan]

Timbit said

Why?

psychoteddybear said

i don't see why this matters so much to people...

Are you guys seriously asking why males want their lineage/lineal identity to continue?

My mind is blown.

[psychoteddybear]

sixpakistan said

Are you guys seriously asking why males want their lineage/lineal identity to continue?

My mind is blown.

unless it is open to other people to become a part of besides those from your family/extended family and heritage...i really don't care and don't understand why this is so important to people. sorry. it's trivial in the end when you consider the bigger picture.

wa salam