Shariah and the Protection of Lineage

[Revert]

Jaysh said

Most of the converts who change their name usually just change their first name, and keep their last name as it was. So Robert Slate will become Abdullah Slate.

I kept my name, its not worth it to anger my mum..she keeeeeeeeeel me!

[Timbit]

LEGALEAGLE said

The point isn't about last names per se but the idea that inheritance of tribe and lineage is through the paternal line.

Timbit is arguing that descent should be through the maternal line but that makes a nonsense of the whole concept of family since its the identity of the father which makes family life and more developed societies possible.

Otherwise society consists of grandmothers and male gang-bangers who use women for sex and prostitution.

THAT is the end result of Timbit's social experiment.

LEGALEAGLE said

WORD.

Because she resents men. There are some women who shouldn't get married until they get over their resentment of the opposite sex just as there are some men eg GotFive

Okay, just to clarify since Bro. LegalEagle is getting things wrong (what else is new? ):

I never proposed a matrilineal system. Ever. I didn't say that I don't want to give my hypothetical kids their hypothetical father's name because I want them to have my name instead. What would that solve? That's why I proposed a totally new name. Lots of people do the his + hers (hyphenated) and that starts a new tradition, although both names are still from a patrilineal descent.

(But just to let you know, our societies, patriarchal ones, are also rife with exploitation of women.)

And I don't resent men. How'd you come up with that?



What I'm asking is if Islam is patrilineal and if so, why. Why is paternal descent so important?

I haven't seen any evidence of patrilineality being important so far. All I've seen is about the importance of lineage, in general.

We can talk about adoption all we want, but it's a different issue entirely: not denying your lineage because again, lineage is important (that's what I meant by you answered your own question, Bro. dreamdeferred).

If the custom were to take both your mother's name, then the verse would tell us not to give our adopted kids their adopted mother's name, no?


Mossad: Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as far as I know.

[sixpakistan]

Variable said

Is that what you think characterizes religious Jewish society?

Jewish society is matrilineal only in the matter of religious inheritance when one of a couple is non-Jewish; everything else is patrilineal AFAIK, as long as the father is Jewish.

[IbnMardhiyah]

TrentReznor858 said

There is no such thing as Islamic names.

So ... what kind of a name is Abdul-Rahman?

[MossadConspiracy]

Timbit said

Mossad: Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as far as I know.

What does ibn mean?

Is Abdullah a masculine or feminine name?

would you say that the name of Allah's Prophet reflects patrilineal lineage?

ws

[Timbit]

MossadConspiracy said

would you say that the name of Allah's Prophet reflects patrilineal lineage?

Yes. Definitely.

So, again, what's your point? Geez, I thought you were Arab. Be blunt about it, man. If you're trying to say that you think that means Islamic naming practices reflect patrilineal descent, then say it.

[nooni]

Jaysh said

Most of the converts who change their name usually just change their first name, and keep their last name as it was. So Robert Slate will become Abdullah Slate.

Variable said

Anyway, I'm curious about what do people think about adopting "Islamic" names when someone converts to Islam, when paternal descent is considered so important. I know there's been a thread on that before, but this context never really came up as far as I can remember.

i have a question about this too actually. maybe Revert you would noe...

Since it is better for a convert to keep their last name to protect the lineage, is this true for his children as well? meaning that is the convert allowed to change his children's last name for the sake of a more "islamic" name (i use this term loosely)?


another question:

many European countries have colonized other countries(many muslims ones) and in the process of changing the people's identity to become more "European", they forced the citizens to change the last name.

for example, my fathers last name is french, even though we are Arab. the french forced his family and millions of others many generations back to change it when they colonized Algeria. today, no one really noes or remembers what the original name was. my last name does not have a bad meaning. my question is if anyone noes whether in the case of colonization (in this case, their intention was to strip Algeria of its muslim and arab identity): is it better to change the name back to any Arab one since thats what it was originally?

[wheelworks]

nooni said

i have a question about this too actually. maybe Revert you would noe...

Since it is better for a convert to keep their last name to protect the lineage, is this true for his children as well? meaning that is the convert allowed to change his children's last name for the sake of a more "islamic" name (i use this term loosely)?

Usually they use their middle name as a last name. Like Sh. Hamza Yusuf Hansen. Everyone calls him Hamza Yusuf. Dunno what last name his children adopt though.

[MossadConspiracy]

Timbit said

So, again, what's your point? Geez, I thought you were Arab. Be blunt about it, man. If you're trying to say that you think that means Islamic naming practices reflect patrilineal descent, then say it.

No, thats not what i was saying. There is no such thing as an Islamic naming practice, as far as I know. Different cultures have different practices. But all Islamic cultures have patrilineal naming and the sunna of the prophet when it comes to naming follows that pattern.

If we are going to follow somebody's example we should follow the example of Gods prophet. If we're going to live by the norms of some culture, then why not the cultures that we came from.

But again like I said before, you dont have to follow the Prophet's example, you dont have to do things the way your traditional culture says to do them. You dont even have to name your kids islamic names, you can name them overtly christian or hindu names if you feel like thats best. You dont have to do anything you dont want to do, you live in a free society. Just find some guy who believes what you believe (whatever that might be), and enjoy having babies with him and naming them whatever you want.

ws

[Revert]

nooni said

i have a question about this too actually. maybe Revert you would noe...

Since it is better for a convert to keep their last name to protect the lineage, is this true for his children as well? meaning that is the convert allowed to change his children's last name for the sake of a more "islamic" name (i use this term loosely)?

As far as i know it is as their name needs to reflect their father ie: Me so it could be my surname or a ibn *insert first name here*

nooni said

another question:

many European countries have colonized other countries(many muslims ones) and in the process of changing the people's identity to become more "European", they forced the citizens to change the last name.

for example, my fathers last name is french, even though we are Arab. the french forced his family and millions of others many generations back to change it when they colonized Algeria. today, no one really noes or remembers what the original name was. my last name does not have a bad meaning. my question is if anyone noes whether in the case of colonization (in this case, their intention was to strip Algeria of its muslim and arab identity): is it better to change the name back to any Arab one since thats what it was originally?

The islamic requirement is to keep the Fathers name in order to reflect the lineage, if it had been changed in the past (ie many generations) it still reflects the lineage as far as i know. I can't find the fatwas i had on this issue.

[shadha]

Timbit: Probably. It'd be silly for me to say I'd never compromise on this particular thing. We have to compromise on a lot of things in life. I could perhaps understand if my hypothetical husband would want to give his kids his last name, but... I would ideally not like to take it for myself. This is why I'd suggest making a new last name for the whole family. It might work (I know Muslim people who've done it). If not, I'd have to compromise, yeah. I don't think I'd let it be a total dealbreaker.

You didn't link to wheelworks direct post in their other thread and I'm too lazy to search through the entire thread to find it.

This is definitely a topic to discuss before even getting engaged, because it has the potential to break the relationship. My husband wrongfully assumed I would take his name upon marriage. I'm not going to lie, he was really upset and confused about it. I laid it out for him though. Upon marriage, I did not become his possession. I will not discard my birth name to replace it with his. Having Abdulaziz as my last name means a lot to me. It is the name my father chose upon converting and it is the name of our family. I am an Abdulaziz, not an Afayee. My husband also wrongfully assumed that by me not taking his last name our children won't either. With that he became furious. I don't know why he even assumed that because clearly I was talking about myself but whatever lol. He's the only son and it means everything to him to have his children continue the lineage of Afayee. It's also very important to me that my children share the name of their father.

Considering the society I live in, I eventually decided to do the hyphen [Shadha Abdulaziz-Afayee] for legalities because I don't want any confusion with outsiders as to whether or not my children are mine. Though, even now, I still sign my name as only Abdulaziz...there was only one time I signed it Shadha Afayee [even though on my credit card it clearly said Shadha Abdulaziz] because he was breathing down my neck watching me sign, so I decided to appease him. Lol.


shadha-

[Revert]

shadha said

Timbit: Probably. It'd be silly for me to say I'd never compromise on this particular thing. We have to compromise on a lot of things in life. I could perhaps understand if my hypothetical husband would want to give his kids his last name, but... I would ideally not like to take it for myself. This is why I'd suggest making a new last name for the whole family. It might work (I know Muslim people who've done it). If not, I'd have to compromise, yeah. I don't think I'd let it be a total dealbreaker.

You didn't link to wheelworks direct post in their other thread and I'm too lazy to search through the entire thread to find it.

This is definitely a topic to discuss before even getting engaged, because it has the potential to break the relationship. My husband wrongfully assumed I would take his name upon marriage. I'm not going to lie, he was really upset and confused about it. I laid it out for him though. Upon marriage, I did not become his possession. I will not discard my birth name to replace it with his. Having Abdulaziz as my last name means a lot to me. It is the name my father chose upon converting and it is the name of our family. I am an Abdulaziz, not an Afayee. My husband also wrongfully assumed that by me not taking his last name our children won't either. With that he became furious. I don't know why he even assumed that because clearly I was talking about myself but whatever lol. He's the only son and it means everything to him to have his children continue the lineage of Afayee. It's also very important to me that my children share the name of their father.

Considering the society I live in, I eventually decided to do the hyphen [Shadha Abdulaziz-Afayee] for legalities because I don't want any confusion with outsiders as to whether or not my children are mine. Though, even now, I sign my name as only Abdulaziz...there was only one time I signed it Shadha Afayee [even though on my credit card it clearly said Shadha Abdulaziz] because he was breathing down my neck watching me sign, so I decided to appease him. Lol.


shadha-

Its preferred for a wife to keep her maiden name..just sayin.. so if you want to keep your old name then you're justified.

[IbnMardhiyah]

shadha said

My husband wrongfully assumed I would take his name upon marriage. I'm not going to lie, he was really upset and confused about it. I laid it out for him though. Upon marriage, I did not become his possession. I will not discard my birth name to replace it with his. Having Abdulaziz as my last name means a lot to me.

Revert said

Its preferred for a wife to keep her maiden name..just sayin.. so if you want to keep your old name then you're justified.

Shadha, explain to your husband that in Islam, the main rationale behind the wife keeping her maiden name is that because she has no blood relationship to her husband, so she should keep her maiden last name to reflect blood ties. There's nothing offensive about this, and in fact its recommended by many scholars that the wife keep her last name after marriage for this exact reason. So if its important to him at all, to hear what the shyoukh have said about this issue, then tell him that.

The children of course, will bear the father's last name.

[shadha]

Ibn: So if its important to him at all, to hear what the shyoukh have said about this issue, then tell him that.

It's not. It was enough for him to hear my reasoning behind why I made the choice I did.


shadha-

[dreamdeferred]

Timbit said

Okay, just to clarify since Bro. LegalEagle is getting things wrong (what else is new? ):

I never proposed a matrilineal system. Ever. I didn't say that I don't want to give my hypothetical kids their hypothetical father's name because I want them to have my name instead. What would that solve? That's why I proposed a totally new name. Lots of people do the his + hers (hyphenated) and that starts a new tradition, although both names are still from a patrilineal descent.

(But just to let you know, our societies, patriarchal ones, are also rife with exploitation of women.)

And I don't resent men. How'd you come up with that?



What I'm asking is if Islam is patrilineal and if so, why. Why is paternal descent so important?

I haven't seen any evidence of patrilineality being important so far. All I've seen is about the importance of lineage, in general.

We can talk about adoption all we want, but it's a different issue entirely: not denying your lineage because again, lineage is important (that's what I meant by you answered your own question, Bro. dreamdeferred).

If the custom were to take both your mother's name, then the verse would tell us not to give our adopted kids their adopted mother's name, no?


Mossad: Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as far as I know.

Honestly sis,

I think I've shown quite a bit of evidence that suggests Islam favors a patrilineal system. The adoption example is not unrelated at all, in fact it's quite salient to this discussion.

More importantly though, you still haven't answered my question. If we accept that preservation of lineage is one of the fundamental objectives of Sha'riah, how does altering the last name without any reference to the father accomplish this goal? Support your assertions with evidence.