[Timbit]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Tableeghi Jamaat
Ashari Sufis
Deobandis

Do most people know the distinctions, do you think?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Do most people know the distinctions, do you think?

No they don't, and most people don't care to know either. That's been my personal experience. I don't have any newspaper articles to back it up.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

No they don't, and most people don't care to know either. That's been my personal experience. I don't have any newspaper articles to back it up.

Yeah, I think so too.

I was throwing out a theory about how these things get mixed up and conflated in people's minds. Anybody with a long beard is considered to be extreme and extremists are linked to terrorists who are linked to Wahhabis. It's all the same in our collective consciousness which is formulated in part by the media. I've even heard Muslims (who consider themselves progressive) voice these kind of thoughts.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure you (generic you) can find the relevant information to back this up. There are abundant examples and perhaps there's even been some research on it already. I'll search tomorrow, InshaAllah.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Taliban = Deobandi. They are linked with terrorism all the time. That's the most obvious example.

You don't read newspapers?

Tablighi Jamaat: Jihad's Stealthy Legions - Middle East Quarterly

MPACUK - Tablighi Jamaat Behind New Barcelona Attack?

Islamist Networks: The Case of Tablighi Jamaat by Nicholas Howenstein: USIPeace Briefing: U.S. Institute of Peace

You said "You would think so, except that Orthodox and Fundamentalist are kind of bad words that have been linked with terrorism a few times too many. I think that's why a lot of people want to shy away from those labels, however accurate and correct they may be"

None of the articles you posted refer to the Tableeghi Jamat or the Taliban as being "orthodox" so I don't see how its a bad word that has been linked with terrorism.

There's a difference between saying orthodoxy has been linked to terrorism (which implies that the bulk of Islamic scholars that adhere to a school of kalam and tasawwuf) and a particular group is linked to terrorism.

The bulk of Deobandi maddrassehs are in India and not a single maddrasseh in any other country (India, UK, US, South Africa, Bangladesh) have ever been linked to terrorism. I think your use of the term "orthodoxy" was misleading. Their were news reports about how they held a huge conference to condemn terrorism.

I've just never read a headline that says "Orthodox Muslim Blows Up . . . " or "Kills". Most of the time, I've seen "Radical Muslim" or "Muslim Extremist" or "Fundamentalist Muslim" etc. So when you threw "Orthodox" in with "Fundamentalism" in your comment, I was curious to see if you had any sources that directly linked "Orthodox" as a phrase with violence.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

You said "You would think so, except that Orthodox and Fundamentalist are kind of bad words that have been linked with terrorism a few times too many. I think that's why a lot of people want to shy away from those labels, however accurate and correct they may be"

None of the articles you posted refer to the Tableeghi Jamat or the Taliban as being "orthodox."


There's a difference between saying orthodoxy has been linked to terrorism (which implies that the bulk of Islamic scholars that adhere to a school of kalam and tasawwuf) and a particular group is linked to terrorism.

The bulk of Deobandi maddrassehs are in India and not a single maddrasseh in any other country (India, UK, US, South Africa, Bangladesh) have ever been linked to terrorism. I think your use of the term "orthodoxy" was misleading.

I can't voice my oppinion? MuslimZ and I said (to me anyway) the same thing. Why do you single me out to provide you with proof? How am I being misleading?

I PERSONALLY think of Tablighi's as Orthodox, and I think most MUSLIMS would too. I dont think they are fundamentalist or extremists. The MEDIA links them. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear to you. I wasn't trying to mislead anyone.

Orthodox meaning strict to most people. Orthodox Muslim, dude with a beard who visits a Mosque... gets pulled out of line every time he goes to the airport, questioned by immigration every time he enters the country, gets detained for no reason after 9/11... you can't see it? In the media, if he so much as ran over a cat, the headline would be "Fundamentalist Muslim with ties to .... comits vehicular homicide of kitten"

All the media links with Tablighi Jamat didn't specify a single madrassah, they pointed to the group as a whole.

My point was that in peoples MINDS when things like Tablighi Jamat, or any other random Muslim dude with a beard get implicated for Terrorism, even when it's later proven that no such thing happened, people react. People want to shy away from labels that make them appear to be religious. Those labels being Orthodox, Fundamentalist etc.

Is it clear enough for you yet?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

I agree with your assessment. I was just curious if there were any links to orthodoxy in the mainstream media, other than by the Frontpage Fairy slamophobes (Spencer, Malkin, et al)

His and my assessment are the same. He's not being misleading?

[Timbit]

The word madrassah has also been co-opted. It's a centre for religious learning. But now it seems it means a terrorist breeding centre. So yeah, pretty much all madrassahs have been implicated. And pretty much all practicing Muslims have been too.

Do you really think if somebody wants to call you a terrorist, they'll ask you which kind of Islam you adhere to first? People, even Muslims, don't know the difference between Tablighi Jamaat Muslims and Salafis. They're all strict Muslims.

Maybe we can all argue about the meanings of "orthodox" and "fundamentalist" now.

[Rida]

They are ullo's and they must be stopped!
In all seriousness though, ignorant subcontinental peeps label anyone who disagree with them as wahabi's.

Wassalaam

[Abu_Hind]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

When has Tableeghi Jamaat or any Ashari Sufis or Deobandis have ever been linked to terrorism? Can you give a few examples of this?

I'm not aware of anyone who is an Orthodox Sunni being linked to terrorism.

So Jinnz are you saying that anyone who isn't an Ashari sufi, fall outsides the parameters of orthodoxy. If they do this implies they are more likely to fall into unorthodox activites. In other words only Wahhabis, and to be accurate, only takfeeris, ikhwanis, salafis etc are likely to fall into various types of extremism?

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Abu_Hind

So Jinnz are you saying that anyone who isn't an Ashari sufi, fall outsides the parameters of orthodoxy. If they do this implies they are more likely to fall into unorthodox activites. In other words only Wahhabis, and to be accurate, only takfeeris, ikhwanis, salafis etc are likely to fall into various types of extremism?

No, I was too lazy to type in every single group that qualified as orthodox.

[Abu_Hind]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

No, I was too lazy to type in every single group that qualified as orthodox.

So, does it include those damn desert bedu Wahaabis?

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Abu_Hind

So, does it include those damn desert bedu Wahaabis?

Yes.



Note: I didn't mention Deobandis as well, whom I obviously consider to be orthodox.

[Abu_Hind]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Yes.



Note: I didn't mention Deobandis as well, whom I obviously consider to be orthodox.

Humm strange, I thought I read Deobandis. Or maybe it's my brain, everytime I read your posts, I inadvertently read certain words into them, such as :euorcentrism, hegemonic, Deobandi...you know the usual Jinnzawords.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Abu_Hind

Humm strange, I thought I read Deobandis. Or maybe it's my brain, everytime I read your posts, I inadvertently read certain words into them, such as :euorcentrism, hegemonic, Deobandi...you know the usual Jinnzawords.

My bad, I misread this post. I did refer to Deobandis and Tableeghi Jamaat, but I only brought them up because CM was referring to them as examples of orthodoxy being linked to terrorism. My point wasn't to argue that these were the only orthodox groups, rather, her argument that "orthodox groups" have been linked to terrorism in the media.

[ShahRukh]

A hanafi is one that follows Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) in matters of fiqh. Shafi is one that follows the fiqh of Imam Shafi (ra).

Similarly a Wahhabi is one that follows Ibn Abdul Wahhab.


So, what the biggie??