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My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

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Old 07-02-2008, 08:18 AM
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Default My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Assalamu 3alaikum
( Before posting please see my "importance of manners" thread, thanks)


Some of the conversations i've had with my sister in regards to hadiths, shows that she is highly sceptical of hadiths and prefers to solemnly take from the Quran without the aid of hadiths. Whenever i Quote the Quran in a conversation pertaining to religion or the "Sunnah" in english, she responds by saying "The Quran was revealed in arabic, so quote the quran in arabic". She doesn't even trust the English translations. There are various of verses stressing the importance of the prophets role and following him.

I've tried to look more into the Quraniyoon sect, and many things have left me confused.

I'm trying to find a way to reason with my sister, Shes not interested in what i say in regards to hadiths, often times she just dismisses me rather easily... What am i supposed to do?

Many things within the hadiths she finds disgusting and inappropriate, a while ago we were watching something and one of the speakers Quoted a hadith whereby apparently the prophet saaw had a bath with his wife(?), and these very personal intimate things he did with his wives and my sister went off on a roller coaster saying things like, "look at this filth and what they are saying about the prophet saw..did the prophet go and tell his companions what he did with his wives or did his wives go and tell his companions what he did?"

...I dont really think she is part of the Quraniyoon sect, mainly because shes totally different from all the hadith-rejecters i've met. Shes realistic and just dislikes some hadiths...but perhaps she doesn't understand them. Shes unconsciously holding the same beliefs as the Quraniyoon sect and i dont really want her to go down that road.

Any advice?




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Last edited by kellyjaz : 07-03-2008 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Be patient with her.

A lot of muslims go through that phase in their early twenties. Its due to a combination of idealism and the desire for absolute answers which admit no shades of gray.

Don't fix her in her position by saying to her that she's a 'xyz'.

oh and its 'adviCe'...my secretary used to do that too...
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I have decided to stay away from discussing religion on forums with anyone and everyone ... it is better for me at least to discuss issues I have with scholars.

http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/ne...tml#post238443
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

( did you fire your secretary?)

So i just sit back and watch her? I can do that...for how long am i supposed be patient?
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyjaz View Post
( did you fire your secretary?)

So i just sit back and watch her? I can do that...for how long am i supposed be patient?
oh no i couldn't have done that...she helped me put together my wardrobe

Don't confront her arguments with arguments..instead show her the history of people who previously adopted the quran only view including in some cases the founders of these groups and later rejected it.

Her dispute isn't with the source rather with the culture. The answer is to show her that the hadith tradition incorporates many cultures and ways of thought.

I'm actually pretty hopeful because your sister:-

1. Does care about the deen
2. Cares enough to study
3. Is idealistic
4. Is honest with herself

Take her to IslamExpo and let her see the variety of Islamic thought
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Originally Posted by Chisti

I have decided to stay away from discussing religion on forums with anyone and everyone ... it is better for me at least to discuss issues I have with scholars.

http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/ne...tml#post238443
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Your wife is your secretary?



1) She cares about the deen in the sense she doesnt like the crap thats been attributed to it.
2) She doesnt study islam in uni.
3) yes
4) yes.

Everyone is going on about islamexpo like its the best thing ever, GPU was awful but apparently islamexpo is nothing like gpu.
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Show her these following verses:

And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know-- With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect. (16:43-44)

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)

And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it) (59:7)

We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge. (2:151)

Furthermore, ask her, does she believe the Quran???

Does she not read in the Quran that the hand of the man and woman thief are to be cut off?

What if a child stole? Is he not an exception? Yes. Yet the verse says male and female. The child is either male and female. How do we make an exception? We can refer to hadith?
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Well, the validity of hadith is not based on substance (usually) but the chain of transmission. Perhaps you can point to her the logical flaws of not following the hadith (ie, the source is the same as the Qur'an, from the Prophet's mouth and both have the same system of transmission). There are some articles that discuss the flaws.

Also, you're saying that her problem is with just some hadith? There are some beautiful hadith as well though so remind her... and I know that some hadith don't sit well with us. What is the grading of these hadith? Rejecting a hadith sahih is fisq (corruption) and rejecting mutawattir hadith (those hadith are so widely and strongly transmitted that it's impossible that it would have made up, the Qur'an is also a mutawattir transmission), then only that is kufr. So if it's just a hadith here or there that is not mutawattir or sahih, then perhaps she will change her mind later on. (Note: I'm not calling her kafir or anything astaghfirullah, just relaying basic principles).

Also, I've never heard that hadith specfically but as intimate as those hadiths are, they are very important so that Muslims can learn how to be intimate with one another and what's halal and haram for spouses. (I know for us it's obvious that spouses can say anything to no one another, but when you're a jurist, you need to back yourself up with proof). So actually those hadith serve a very important purpose for us and it's a mercy that we know these things so people don't say that saying such things to your spouse is haram.

Lastly, when people have doubts about important matters of the religion, it becomes obligatory to seek knowledge until those doubts are taken care of. Perhaps you can kindly suggest sources she can, or if you have local halaqas or scholars that can explain to her some of these things, that may help.

Okie, hope that helps
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

No one could figure out how to correct the Qur'an only guys here except insult them...So umm this is probably the wrong forum to ask advice of that nature
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proudtobemuslim View Post
Show her these following verses:

And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know-- With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect. (16:43-44)
'Making clear' the Revelation doesn't mean add to its Verses with new teachings and contradictory laws.

Quote:
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah (4:80)
Obeying the Messenger is obeying Allah because the Message of the Messenger was the Qur'an Revealed by Allah.

Quote:
And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it) (59:7)
This Verse says take the BOOTY / SPOILS of war that the Messenger gives you, but you quoted only a fraction of the Verse, I wonder why?

Quote:
We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge. (2:151)
'Instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom' somehow refers to following Hadith? If anything it's emphasising on the Qur'an, what you're trying to prove is very far-fetched.

Quote:
Does she not read in the Quran that the hand of the man and woman thief are to be cut off?

What if a child stole? Is he not an exception? Yes. Yet the verse says male and female. The child is either male and female. How do we make an exception? We can refer to hadith?
The Qur'an wasn't revealed to a stupid person or community, we are expected to use our reasoning and intellect too when it comes to applying the Qur'anic rulings. For example, the definition of a 'child' may differ according to different societies and time-zones, some maturing later than others at a different age, hence might not become deserving of punishment till they are older. ie. these things have to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Indispensability of Hadith
Dr. Khalid Alvi

The Place of Hadith in Islam
American Trust Publications
© 1977 MSA


Sunnah or Hadith is the second source from which the teachings of Islam are drawn. Hadith literally means a saying conveyed to man, but in Muhaditheen's terminology Hadith means sayings of the Prophet, his action or practice of his silent approval of the action or practice. Hadith and Sunnah are used interchangeably, but sometimes these are used for different meanings.

To deal with the topic it is necessary to know the position of the Prophet in Islam, because the indispensibility of Hadith depends upon the position of the Prophet.

Analyzing the problem we can visualize three possibilities:

1. The duty of the Prophet was only to convey the message and nothing more was required from him.

2. He had not only to convey the message but also to act upon it and to explain it. But all that was for the specified period and after his death Qur'an is sufficient to guide humanity.

3. No doubt he had to convey the Divine Message but it was also his duty to act upon it and to explain it to the people. His actions and explanations are a source of guidance forever. His sayings, actions, practices and explanations are a source of light for every Muslim in every age.

The learned men of the Muslim Millat are of the unanimous view that only the third point is the correct assessment of the Prophet's position in Islam. The Qur'an contains dozens of reminders of the important position of the Prophet. For instance the Qur'an says:

"And verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last day and remembereth Allah much." [Al-Ahzab 31]

According to this verse, every Muslim is bound to have the good example of the Prophet as an ideal in life. In another verse he has been made a 'Hakam' for the Muslims by Allah Almighty. No one remains Muslim if he does not accept the Prophet's decisions and judgements:

"But no, by thy Lord, they can have no real faith until they make thee judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions but accept them with the fullest conviction."[An-Nisa: 65]

While explaining the qualities of Muslims the Qur'an says:

"The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: They say: we hear and we obey." [An-Nur: 51]

In many places the Qur'an has given its verdict on this issue. The Qur'an says:

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger." [An-Nisa 59]

and

"Whatever the Messenger giveth you take it and whatever he forbiddeth abstain from it." [Al-Hashr: 7]

Qur'an is very clear in expressing its view on the position of the Prophet. According to the Qur'an the Prophet has four capacities and he must be obeyed in every capacity. He is Mu`allim wa Murabbee he is Shaari` one who explains the Book, he is a law-giver and judge, and he is a ruler. In all these capacities he is an ideal example for the Muslims. I am quoting a few verses of the Holy Book just to give a hint of this topic.

"Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sentamong them an apostle from among themselves rehearsing untothem the signs of Allah, sanctifying them in scripture andwisdom while, before that, they had been in manifest error." [Al-Imran: 164]

"And We have sent down unto thee the Message that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them."[An-Nahl: 44]

"For he commands them what is just and forbids them what isevil; he allows them as lawful what is good and pure andprohibits them from what is bad and impure. He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them." [Al-Araf: 157]

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything amonst yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day." [An-Nisa: 59]

"It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman when a matterhas been decided by Allah and His apostle to have any optionabout their decision. If any one disobeys Allah and His apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong path." [Al-Ahzab: 36]

In all these verses, the Qur'an has explained various aspects of the Prophets personality. One can judge the importance of the Prophet from these verses. I am reminded of another important verse of the Qur'an, which is actually a verdict against those who do not believe in Hadith as an authentic source of law:

"If any one contends with the Prophet even after guidance hasbeen plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge." [An-Nisa: 110]

The Qur'an while pressing the Muslims to obey the Prophet, goes a step further when it announces that the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is above all the limitations of time and space. He is the last Prophet and is a Messenger of Allah for the whole of humanity for all time to come.

Hadith is nothing but a reflection of the personality of the Prophet, who is to be obeyed at every cost.

Any student of the Qur'an will see that the Holy Book generally deals with the broad principles or essentials of religion, going into details in very rare cases. The details were generously supplied by the Prophet himself, either by showing in his practice how an injunction shall be carried out, or by giving an explanation in words. The Sunnah or Hadith of the Holy Prophet was not, as is generally supposed, a thing of which the need may have been felt only after his death, for it was very much needed in his lifetime. The two most important religious institutions of Islam are prayer and zakat; yet when the injunction relating to prayer and zakat were delivered, and they were repeatedly revealed in both Mecca and Madina, no details were supplied. Keep up prayers (aqimoo as-salaah the Qur'anic injunction and it was the Prophet himself who by his own actions gave details of the prayer and said: (Salloo kamaa ra'aytamoonee usaallee) "Pray as you see me praying."

Payment of zakah is again an injunction frequently repeated in the Qur'an yet it was the Prophet (peace be upon him) who gave the rules and regulations for its payment and collection. These are but two example; but since Islam covers the entire sphere of human activities, hundreds of points had to be explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) by his example in action and in words.

The Ulama have discussed the question of Hadith in detail as a "wahyun khafee" and prophetic wisdom. I do not want to go into the details, but one thing must be stated clearly that there were cases when the Prophet, not having received a revelation, made a personal effort to formulate opinion through his own wisdom. Either it was corrected by revelation or it was approved. The importance of the Sunnah even as a second source of Islam was a settled issue for the Companions of the Prophet. I quote only one of the many examples: that of Mu`az ibn Jabal who said to the Prophet that he would decide according to the Sunnah if he did not find the solution of a problem in the Book. To quote Dr. Hamidullah:

"The importance of Hadith is increased for the Muslim by the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) not only taught, but took the opportunity of putting his teachings into practice in all the important affairs of life. He lived for twenty three years after his appointment as the Messenger of Allah. He endowed his community with a religion, which he scrupulously practiced himself. He founded a state, which he administered as the supreme head, maintaining internal peace and order, heading armies for external defense, judging and deciding the litigations of his subjects, punishing the criminals and legislating in all walks of life. He married and left a model of family life. Another important fact is that he did not declare himself to be above the ordinary law which he imposed on others. His practice was not mere private conduct, but a detailed interpretation and application of his teachings." (Introduction to Islam page 23)

The man, therefore, who embraced Islam stood in need of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Actually Hadith is so important that without it one cannot fully understand the Holy Book and Islam or be able to apply it to one's life and practice.


Link: Indispensability of Hadith (Islaam.Com)
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyjaz View Post
Your wife is your secretary?

1) She cares about the deen in the sense she doesnt like the crap thats been attributed to it.
2) She doesnt study islam in uni.
3) yes
4) yes.

Everyone is going on about islamexpo like its the best thing ever, GPU was awful but apparently islamexpo is nothing like gpu.


no...she's beautiful knows how to dress well and is kind hearted but is far far too liberal for me...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by proudtobemuslim View Post
Show her these following verses:

Furthermore, ask her, does she believe the Quran???

Does she not read in the Quran that the hand of the man and woman thief are to be cut off?

What if a child stole? Is he not an exception? Yes. Yet the verse says male and female. The child is either male and female. How do we make an exception? We can refer to hadith?
__________________
Originally Posted by Chisti

I have decided to stay away from discussing religion on forums with anyone and everyone ... it is better for me at least to discuss issues I have with scholars.

http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/ne...tml#post238443
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

...And so another thread is derailed successfully and the story of Islamica goes on ...
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Old 07-02-2008, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Here are a bunch of articles that will help refute hadeeth rejector mentality:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/hadeeth_rejecters

I myself almost became a hadeeth rejector when I was 18 years old. May Allah [swt] save us all from this fitnah.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: My sister rejects/doubts (?) hadiths - Need advise.

Jazakhum Allah khayer (i/a), Thanks.

- kellz
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