[Jaysh]

Oftentimes, Christian Islamaphobes attack Islam by pointing out that Muslims at one point in time made Jews and Christians wear distinctive clothing. Well, we should remind them that the Christians are the ones who started this tradition. We read:

At the end of the letter, he [Saint Thomas Aquinas] reminded the Duchess that a general council (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215) had decreed that "Jews of both sexes in every Christian land should always be distinguished from other people by a special dress." Aquinas's attitude towards the Jews was typical of medieval Christianity.

(St. Thomas Aquinas on Politics and Ethics, Translated and Edited by Paul E. Sigmund, p. 75, ISBN 0-393-95243-6)

It should be remembered that St. Thomas Aquinas is arguably considered by the Church to be the leading Christian theologian, much like Imam Abu Haneefa (ra) to the Muslims.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Depends on whom you're talking to.

Most Christians don't care about what St. Thomas Aquinas said, they'll still persist in their criticism regardless.

[Salika]

Well he's Catholic more specifically so most protestants (who believe are the main make up of Christian Islamaphobes) don't care what Aquinas said. And a "oh ya well you did too" response isn't the best way to answer a criticism.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Oftentimes, Christian Islamaphobes attack Islam by pointing out that Muslims at one point in time made Jews and Christians wear distinctive clothing. Well, we should remind them that the Christians are the ones who started this tradition. We read:

The old "they started it" routine.



Anyway, if they did in fact start such a tradition, what's to be made of the pact of Umar five hundred years before, in which it was included that non-Muslims were to dress disctinctively from Muslims?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

Anyway, if they did in fact start such a tradition, what's to be made of the pact of Umar five hundred years before, in which it was included that non-Muslims were to dress disctinctively from Muslims?

... ouch.

[Revert]

Retarded argument..i'm not responsible for the sins of the father...What Muslims did humdreds of years ago doesn't equate to what i do now.

The line of argument is weak Jaysh.

[LEGALEAGLE]

We expect nay demand better from you Jaysh !

[jinnzaman]

I think all Muslims should be forced to wear the old reebok pumps:



And these too, just to be on the safe side:

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by Salika

Well he's Catholic more specifically so most protestants (who believe are the main make up of Christian Islamaphobes) don't care what Aquinas said.

I did not create a detailed rebuttal, nor was that my intention in this thread. Rather, it was merely to show one point that can be conveyed to a specific set of people. Yes, some Protestants might brush it off, but read the quote carefully! This was the normal state of affairs throughout Christiandom at the time.

And a "oh ya well you did too" response isn't the best way to answer a criticism.

How much time have you spent debating Christians? Please list the works written by yourself.

In fact, it is one of the BEST ways to deflect criticism: the best defense is a strong offense.

For example, if Shias show that Sunni books say such-and-such, one of the BEST tactics is to retaliate by showing how Shia books say the same thing.

Originally Posted by Variable

Anyway, if they did in fact start such a tradition, what's to be made of the pact of Umar five hundred years before, in which it was included that non-Muslims were to dress disctinctively from Muslims?

First, I did not mean to imply that Muslims literally got it from the Christians. Rather, I mean to say that this was a normal practice done by Christians for a very long time.

Originally Posted by Revert

Retarded argument..i'm not responsible for the sins of the father...

Only one retarded is you.

The line of argument is weak Jaysh.

It is in fact very strong. See my reply to sister Salika.

It is well-known that the best way to shut someone up is by exposing the hypocrisy in their argument. The best way is to show them how they are just throwing stones from their glass house. So a Shia claims that Sunnis believe in ayat ar-rajm, so you show how Shia books say the exact same thing. A Christian criticizes the death penalty in Islam for apostasy; well, show them how the same punishment exists in the Bible, etc. Extremely good way of debating.

Writing detailed and beneficial rebuttals is a precise art. Nobody is saying that the "so do you" argument is a complete rebuttal in and of itself...rather, it is one point that should be conveyed amongst many. In the case of distinctive clothing, there are many other arguments which should be brought up, especially the fact that the distinguished clothing was done so that the 'religious police' would not harass them for not praying, wearing hijab, etc.

Personally, my experience has been that the best way to write rebuttals is to first mention the "so do you" arguments, and then after that follow it up with a detailed explanation of why Muslims believe what they do. It's a tried and true method of debating.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Jaysh ...

... how are you showing the hypocrisy in their arguments if they don't believe in it anyways?

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Jaysh ...

... how are you showing the hypocrisy in their arguments if they don't believe in it anyways?

Simple.

Muslims of the past made other people wear distinctive clothing, but now no Muslim country does that or even calls to that.

Similarly:

Christians of the past made other people wear distinctive clothing, but now no Christian country does that or even calls to that.

Therefore, to conclude the matter, if the Christians are going to criticize Islam and Muslims for this fact, then they must condemn themselves as well. If they say that Christians just did it in the past and no longer do it, then this answer will suffice the Muslims! Whatever answer the Christians give, that will suffice us as well. In exonerating themselves, they will in the process exonerate the Muslims.

This point therefore nullifies this particular polemic against Islam and the Muslims.

[socceroni67]

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Simple.

Muslims of the past made other people wear distinctive clothing, but now no Muslim country does that or even calls to that.

Similarly:

Christians of the past made other people wear distinctive clothing, but now no Christian country does that or even calls to that.

Therefore, to conclude the matter, if the Christians are going to criticize Islam and Muslims for this fact, then they must condemn themselves as well. If they say that Christians just did it in the past and no longer do it, then this answer will suffice the Muslims! Whatever answer the Christians give, that will suffice us as well. In exonerating themselves, they will in the process exonerate the Muslims.

This point therefore nullifies this particular polemic against Islam and the Muslims.

I still don't see how that make a difference.

Muslim countries nowadays don't follow Islam, and Christian countries don't follow Christianity.

What they are criticizing are the principles of Islam which would probably be put into practice if Islam was the main source of legislation in any Muslim country today, and the possibility of that happening [based on the express demands of Muslim populations in many Muslim countries] is much higher than the possibility of Christianity forming the basis of legislation in any Christian country, today.

I mean, if you really just want to get that kind of polemicism out of the way, the just dismiss it arbitrarily on the grounds that its an outdated practice which is no longer in use today.

As for doing "jack crap in this area" ... - dude, a lot of us have been around the block a few times and back. Go to Ali Sina's site and you'll see some of my stuff up there from nearly a decade ago, although he messed up the colors. Debating with Christians, Shias, Rob Spencer types ... been there, done that.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Only one retarded is you.

Good comeback..spazz

Originally Posted by Jaysh

It is in fact very strong. See my reply to sister Salika

.

I read your reply to Salika and it was still weak. The whole "look what you did, see you're just as bad as us" argument IS weak.

You suck at Dawah.