[A_Muminah]

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

I bet you belive that 9/11 was staged by the CIA and George Bush to justify an invasion of the Muslim world and convert Muslism into consumers.

Thats besides the point and no, I dont.

Originally Posted by Revert

Regardless of who did what killing children is deplorable and anyone who does it deserves to be judged accordingly on the day.

Indeed.

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh

[roberto]

[quote=A_Muminah;10638]As-Salaamu 'Alaykum,

Allow me to break the news to you. It was not the Chechens that killed any children. As a matter of fact, the Russian authorities blew up part of the building, killing many and then threw in gas and stormed the school, killing more than 300 people including many children. That is why there is always a cover-up and loads of excuses when the topic is even raised in Russia by the authorities.

Substantiate your accusations,

It was the act of the Russian government just like they gassed their own people in the theater crisis.

The gassing was an attempt to deal with a very difficult hostage situation , how would you have dealt with it?

The Russian people do not even believe that the Chechans killed their children because they know their government and what they are capable of, so who are you to make assumptions? They blame Putin for it and even urge him to at least visit the site of the school to seek the dead's forgiveness for killing them.

Many blamed the government for the handling of the crisis that is not the same as for the attack on the school

Now, stop sticking your nose in something you have no clue about. Run along and research why Anna Politkovskaya was murdered by her own government.

Well I have access to international information as indeed you do, however for you to take the attitude you have is only justified if you have access to special non-public sources , so instead of huffing and puffing tell us all about it , but remember substantiate your report

[Arabatman]

Asalaamualaikum,

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

YouTube - Chechen Mujahideen 2007 .. little Funny

Allahumma unsur al-Mujahideen

Mashallah, may Allah(SWT) continue to aid the mujahideen, and give them victory.

Ameen.

Asalaamualaikum,

-Zahid

[A_Muminah]

Originally Posted by roberto

Substantiate your accusations,

Go and look up the statement made by the survivors and the witnesses of the situation and compare it to what was released by the government. You will see it for yourself.

The gassing was an attempt to deal with a very difficult hostage situation , how would you have dealt with it?

So, you'd gas your own people and then put the blame on 'foreign terrorists' who simply wanted freedom in their own land?

Many blamed the government for the handling of the crisis that is not the same as for the attack on the school

Mr. Roberto, not many, more like almost everyone blamed the government for the handling. You know why? They were responsible for the escalation and the shoot-out that left over 330 people dead. Search it alittle more in depth. I do not need to give you an outline.

Well I have access to international information as indeed you do, however for you to take the attitude you have is only justified if you have access to special non-public sources , so instead of huffing and puffing tell us all about it , but remember substantiate your report

Our access to information is similar yet different in many ways.

[roberto]

[quote=A_Muminah;10799]

Go and look up the statement made by the survivors and the witnesses of the situation and compare it to what was released by the government. You will see it for yourself.

I have and although there was severe criticism of the handling of the crisis there were actual TV coverage of children being shot by the terrorist, but apart from arguments on the detail surely you can see that it was an act of terrorist that set up the terrible circumstances that result in the death of people, do try to avoid inverted logic

So, you'd gas your own people and then put the blame on 'foreign terrorists' who simply wanted freedom in their own land?

That really is a silly comment

Mr. Roberto, not many, more like almost everyone blamed the government for the handling. You know why? They were responsible for the escalation and the shoot-out that left over 330 people dead. Search it alittle more in depth. I do not need to give you an outline.

I'm not going to argue whether it was many,most or just about everyone, what amazes me is the twisted concepts whereby governments and police/army units trying to deal with hostage situation somehow become those to blame for the situation set up by terrorist, heck man they attack a school and took children as hostages, do I have to spell it out any clearer

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by MoonStar

Such posts make me wonder whether you're really just a troll trying to stir trouble here. Posts praising the killing of innocents will result in a ban, let this be a final warning to you. It's also sick and haraam, you need to brush up on your rules of war. Drugs are bad. So is killing innocents. If that's too complicated for you to understand, you'll have to spew your opinions elsewhere.

Mod, you didn't understand my post, read again:

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

Terrorists had a pretty good justification of what they did, 'you kill my children, I will kill yours', fair enough, everything is fair in war, kuffar say that. Besides most of the children there were killed by kafir russians from gassing them. And if kuffar really love children, then they should stop killing our children.

I didn't say I support killing the innocent, that's certainly haraam and unlawful. I am only giving the law of the world which is T.i.t for Tat; it happens everywhere in the world, that you kill my loved ones, I will kill yours. This is not about Islam, and we don't need to talk about Islam to kuffar when they come up with their preachings while their own mouth drip blood of the innocent.

Please lift the final warning and keep it for another good time

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by roberto

heck man they attack a school and took children as hostages, do I have to spell it out any clearer

They wouldn't kill school kids if your 'brothers' didn't kill their school kids; terrorism is what your 'big brothers' are asking for. Stop your evil, you wouldn't see others.

[A_Muminah]

Originally Posted by roberto

I have and although there was severe criticism of the handling of the crisis there were actual TV coverage of children being shot by the terrorist, but apart from arguments on the detail surely you can see that it was an act of terrorist that set up the terrible circumstances that result in the death of people, do try to avoid inverted logic

Show me this coverage of the Chechens shooting at children.

I do not think it was a bright idea to go into a school and hold children hostage but from what I have read, it was not their intention to kill the children. The Chechans wanted to put the Russian government in a tough position so that they could at least continue to have negotiations. I have not read ANY authentic report stating that the Chechans killed any child deliberately. Please prove me incorrect if I am in the wrong.

That really is a silly comment

Why is a silly comment? Can one not fight for the freedom of their country? Why is that the US was able to go into Iraq because there was a dictator there enforcing laws that were 'inhumane' and not in favor of the people yet here it cannot happen? The Moscow-run government is a pet of Russia and Russia controls what the heck happens in Chechnya because they invaded the country for the second time. The locals do not want a Moscow-run government seeing as to how they are oppressed and at times even massacred. How is that a silly comment?

I'm not going to argue whether it was many,most or just about everyone, what amazes me is the twisted concepts whereby governments and police/army units trying to deal with hostage situation somehow become those to blame for the situation set up by terrorist, heck man they attack a school and took children as hostages, do I have to spell it out any clearer

Do you not know anything about the Russian government and their cover-ups? SubHana-Allaah. Im amazed you can stand up for something if you know of their atrocities that are known to the world. It goes so far that the Russian people would kill their own to 'blanket' everyone else. There would be no hostage situations if Russia were to pull out of an area that they are not wanted yet they continue to have their soldiers killed and endanger their own people. Even though the hostage-takers do not intent to kill the hostages, it is always the government of Russia that does it for them.
Anyways, read my first reply in this post.

[roberto]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

They wouldn't kill school kids if your 'brothers' didn't kill their school kids; terrorism is what your 'big brothers' are asking for. Stop your evil, you wouldn't see others.

Your personalisation is really not necessary and so utterly non inappropriate.

I could never ever agree with any form of justification for the deliberate killing of children as an act of revenge, retaliation, or for any other reason what-so-ever, your attitude as I perceive it, is such, that further discussion between us on the subject is pointless.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by roberto

Well I have access to international information as indeed you do, however for you to take the attitude you have is only justified if you have access to special non-public sources , so instead of huffing and puffing tell us all about it , but remember substantiate your report

Roberto, how about you substantiate some of your erroneous claims eh?

Here, allow me to demonstrate:

"A big criminal case pertaining to the terrorist attack in Beslan has continued for three years, and it hasn't proceeded without interruption. During the whole proceedings, victims submitted various questions, new facts, new witness testimonials, but unfortunately the investigation committee hasn't paid any attention to these details, to all of these important facts, and constantly dismissed them. For half a year already the investigation has been at a total standstill and isn't looking into the conclusions drawn by the independent parliamentary commission. The prosecution promised to check, but unfortunately this hasn't been done."

She continues:

"The scene described by the official investigation differs considerably from that of the independent investigation. According to the official version, terrorists activated explosive devices, after which the onslaught began. The conclusions drawn by the independent commission, confirmed by nearly all of the surviving hostages, are that the first explosions were heard from outside the gymnasium, fired from two neighboring five-story buildings. When, after the explosions started a fire in the gymnasium, some of the hostages ran inside the school and were already there, the school was engulfed with fire from outside -- shots were fired from flame throwers, grenade launchers, and tanks. Very many people were killed during this bombardment.

Here's the source [and I can provide many more] but be sure to remove those blinkers first OK?

Russia: Questions Remain On Beslan's Third Anniversary - RADIO FREE EUROPE / RADIO LIBERTY

[Songbird]

One more:

Russia marks 3rd anniversary of Beslan massacre

Posted Sun Sep 2, 2007 7:48am AEST

Russia has marked the third anniversary of the Beslan school hostage crisis that left 332 people dead - more than half of them children - at a ceremony tinged with sadness and anger.

Bells rang out at the ruins of the school in the small town in the republic of North Ossetia in memory of the moment on September 1, 2004, when hostage-takers demanding Russian withdrawal from Chechnya seized over 1,000 people.

Victims' relatives and many Russians believe the authorities covered up what happened two days later, when federal troops stormed the school and a firefight with the hostage-takers left hundreds dead.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, speaking in Russia's Caspian Sea city of Astrakhan on a day that is celebrated elsewhere in Russia as the start of the school year, said: "We cannot forget about the children that will never go to school - I mean the tragic events in Beslan."

"We should remember that today," he told children at a local school, in comments broadcast on state television.

In central Moscow's Balotnaya Square, about 250 people gathered within view of the Kremlin for another memorial demonstration by the Beslan Mother's Committee.

Apology demands

"I would like to tell Putin that he shouldn't be afraid to come before these people and say: 'I'm guilty and I ask for your forgiveness,'" said committee member Emilia Bzarova, whose 10-year-old son was killed during the crisis.

The committee also issued an emotional letter demanding that Mr Putin apologise to the 186 children killed in the massacre.

Moscow protesters included opposition leader and chess legend Garry Kasparov, who said it was his "moral obligation to be there because we share the sorrow" of victims' families.

"I am positive that we will one day know the truth," he said.

In Beslan, funereal music played while over 3,000 mourners entered the school under heavy guard, weeping, carrying candles and laying flowers in the burnt-out shell of the gymnasium where the hostages were held.

Portraits of the victims lined the scarred walls inside the gymnasium, as did signs reflecting the enduring emotional and political turmoil.

"There is no forgiveness for the authorities for allowing Beslan," one said. "The federal security service and interior ministry are responsible for terror," read another.

Three years after the massacre, there is anger that virtually the only person to have been punished is the sole surviving hostage-taker.

Russia marks 3rd anniversary of Beslan massacre - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Songbird]

Interesting observation:


Survivor Santa Zangiyeva, 15, spoke to Izvestiya

"There was this thin tall man of about 35, a typical Chechen, his right hand bandaged. He was the angriest of our captors, he was threatening us all the time and firing into the ceiling. It was so stuffy I was unwell, I fainted several times, so my mum asked him to take me to the corridor for a while to take a breath of air. To my surprise he agreed. In the corridor I was nearly sick, my legs gave way, and sat on a rucksack lying by the wall. But he said: 'Don't sit on this one, there are mines in it, sit on that one instead'...
"I asked him 'Will you at least let the children go?' He said: 'No - why? Your Russian troops in Chechnya catch children just like you and cut their heads off. I had a daughter, about your age, and they killed her,' he said."

BBC NEWS | Europe | School siege: Eyewitness accounts

[bluey]

Assalam Alaykum

Going away from the topic at hand, one of my few favourites is this documentary of the Commander Khattab in Chechnya. [May Allah subhanna wa ta'ala grant accept him among the shuhadaa. Ameen.]

YouTube - Khattab in Chechnya 1995-96

[roberto]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Roberto, how about you substantiate some of your erroneous claims eh?

Here, allow me to demonstrate:

"A big criminal case pertaining to the terrorist attack in Beslan has continued for three years, and it hasn't proceeded without interruption. During the whole proceedings, victims submitted various questions, new facts, new witness testimonials, but unfortunately the investigation committee hasn't paid any attention to these details, to all of these important facts, and constantly dismissed them. For half a year already the investigation has been at a total standstill and isn't looking into the conclusions drawn by the independent parliamentary commission. The prosecution promised to check, but unfortunately this hasn't been done."

She continues:

"The scene described by the official investigation differs considerably from that of the independent investigation. According to the official version, terrorists activated explosive devices, after which the onslaught began. The conclusions drawn by the independent commission, confirmed by nearly all of the surviving hostages, are that the first explosions were heard from outside the gymnasium, fired from two neighboring five-story buildings. When, after the explosions started a fire in the gymnasium, some of the hostages ran inside the school and were already there, the school was engulfed with fire from outside -- shots were fired from flame throwers, grenade launchers, and tanks. Very many people were killed during this bombardment.

Here's the source [and I can provide many more] but be sure to remove those blinkers first OK?

Russia: Questions Remain On Beslan's Third Anniversary - RADIO FREE EUROPE / RADIO LIBERTY

My position is very simple:

They attacked a school and took children as hostages, they threaten to kill the children, they subjected them to unbelievable fear, physical suffering and an outcome which resulted in death of hundreds, many of whom were children. Now you can argues the detail as long and as deviously as you wish,I could never, ever, agree with any form of justification for the deliberate taking of children as hostages and subjecting them to violence and resulting death as an act of revenge, retaliation, or for any other reason