[Anderson]

"Hajr bin Adi was a pious companion of the Prophet (saws) and played a vital role in the correction of the Ummah. During Muaweyah's reign when the custom of cursing Ali from the pulpit's of Mosques began, hearts of the Muslims were being bled dry but people bit their tongues fearing death. In Kufa Hajr bin Adi could not remain silent and he began to praise Ali (ra) and condemn Muaweyah. Until Mughira remained the Governor of Kufa, he adopted a lenient attitude towards this, but when Ziyad's Governorship of Basra was extended to include Kufa, serious altercations arose. He would curse Ali (ra) during the khutba and Hajr would refute him.

On one occasion he (Hajr) warned Ziyad for being late for Jumma prayers. Ziyad then arrested him along with twelve of his companions on false accusations of forming an opposition group to overthrow the Khalifa and was cursing the Khalifa. He also gathered witnesses to testify against them alleging that they claimed that khilafath was the exclusive right of the lineage of `Ali ibne Abi Talib and further accused them of creating an uproar, throwing out the commander and of supporting `Abu Turab Ali, of sending blessings upon him and hating his enemies. From amongst these witnesses, Qadi Shudhri's testimony was used. He later wrote to Muaweyah that the blood and property of people who said they offered Salat, paid zakat, and performed Hajj and Umrah, preached right and declared that evil was haram, however if you want to kill them so be it, otherwise forgive them.

The accused were sent to Muaweyah and he sentenced them to death. A condition was placed that if they cursed `Ali (ra) and showed their hatred to him they would be pardoned. They refused and Hajr said `I will not say that thing that will displease Allah'.

Finally he and his seven companions were murdered. From amongst them Abdur Rahman bin Hassan was sent back to return with a written instruction that he be murdered in the worst possible manner, Ziyad buried him alive." chapter 4: "The elimination of freedom of speech"

From Syed Ala' Maududi's 'Caliphs and Kings'

Simple question- Is this account true of false, please provide evidence.

[Shahnawaz]

Maududi was criticised by the majority of the Ummah for making claims that did exist before.

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

Maududi was criticised by the majority of the Ummah for making claims that did exist before.

I know that, I'm asking the basis for their criticism.

The accounts are straight out fake?

[Shahnawaz]

The sunni scholars state that Hijr was a tabi'i and not a Sahabah, such as Bukhari.

They also say that this occured because at the time of Khutba Hijr started throwing stones at the governer for prolonging the Khutba. This was regarded as Fasad and corruption on Earth, so he referred them to Mu'awiyah.

After confirming them to be long-time culprits of such acts he oredered that such actions cannot be tolerated.

After all, it was Uthmans leiniancy on the people to do such things, that eventually led to his murder. He was soft at heart. But Mu'awiyah saw that such an action will only perpetuate such problems.

[rahat]

The Messenger of Allah said:

"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of
hypocrisy."

Sunni references:
- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;

Ali (RA) said: By him who split up the seed and created something
living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a
promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a
hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.
- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

Abu Huraira narrated:
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and
Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight
you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."
Sunni references:
(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699

Muawiyah not only fought Imam Ali, he cursed Imam Ali as well. Furthermore,
he did force/make everybody to curse Ali (AS). To prove it, we begin with
Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa'd, and told him:
"What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab
(nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet
said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse
Ali."

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of
Virtues of Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

Cursing Imam Ali (AS) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah's reign
for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who
canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even
believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn
Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing Ali.
(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens," by Amir Ali,
Chapter X, pp 126-127).

One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah
was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they
used to insult Imam Ali (AS) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was
even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of
the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny),
so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and Imam Ali
(AS), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with
their ears.

Sunni references :
- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80

On insulting Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period
starting in Muawiyah's reign, it is reported that:

"Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the
east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.

Sunni reference: Mu'jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) wrote to
Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar,
and that is because you are cursing Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever
loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him."
But no one paid any attention to what she said.

Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand
minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some
of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

Sunni references:
- Rabeea' al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

I asked my father about Ali and Muawiyah. He (Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
answered: "Know that Ali had a lot of enemies who tried hard to find a
fault in him, but they found it not. As such, they joined a man (i.e.,
Muawiyah, as given in the footnotes) who verily fought him battled
him, and they praised him (Muawiyah) extravagantly setting a snare for
themselves for him.

Sunni references:
- al-Toyuriyyat, by al-Salafi, from Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Hanbal
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 4, p197


-------------

So in summation, I have quoted multiple books of Sahih Hadith, I have quoted some of your 4 Imams, I have provided every single bit of evidence whatsoever is necessary to prove that Muawiya did in fact institute, perpetuate, and order the cursing of Imam Ali.

I'm sure someone will curse me out or say "nu uh!" and so forth, but I thought I would throw this in.

Lets see if the mods keep up their promises to stop personal attacks!

-
rahat

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

The sunni scholars state that Hijr was a tabi'i and not a Sahabah, such as Bukhari.

They also say that this occured because at the time of Khutba Hijr started throwing stones at the governer for prolonging the Khutba. This was regarded as Fasad and corruption on Earth, so he referred them to Mu'awiyah.

After confirming them to be long-time culprits of such acts he oredered that such actions cannot be tolerated.

After all, it was Uthmans leiniancy on the people to do such things, that eventually led to his murder. He was soft at heart. But Mu'awiyah saw that such an action will only perpetuate such problems.

Cursing the Sahaba is bad yeh? That's why Shias are so bad but then its okay for sahabas to curse other sahabas and killing others for protesting this?

[Jamroll]

Salam,

The hadith that's often cited as the proof that Muawiyah encouraged the cursing of Ali, can be interpreted in more than one way.

From my understanding, the mainstream Shia view seems to be to take the hadith as meaning that Muawiyah was admonishing another Sahaba for not cursing Ali (i.e. he was urging the sahaba to curse Ali)
The mainstream Sunni view, however, of the very same hadith is that Muawiyah did not support the cursing of Ali, but during a time when a lot of people were cursing Ali, he came upon an upstanding Sahaba who refused to curse Ali, and he asked him why.

Another point to note is that cursing of people, particularly the Sahaba, is a Shia custom, and has long been a Shia custom from the very beginnings of Shi'i Islam. Muawiyah is one of the predecessors of Sunni (or otherwise mainstream) Islam, and there is no real custom of cursing individuals in Sunni Islam.

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

The mainstream Sunni view, however, of the very same hadith is that Muawiyah did not support the cursing of Ali, but during a time when a lot of people were cursing Ali, he came upon an upstanding Sahaba who refused to curse Ali, and he asked him why.

And then executed him? Why not just ban the cursing of Ali if you disagree with it so much, why tolerate the cursing of a dead man?

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Anderson

And then executed him? Why not just ban the cursing of Ali if you disagree with it so much, why tolerate the cursing of a dead man?

I was referring to the hadith which is often cited, (I think it's from Sahih Muslim) where Muawiyah approaches Sa'ad and asks him about the cursing of Ali. I don't know about the specific case you're asking about from the Maududi quote.

However, I would say that one should take Maududi's work with a bit of caution. There's no doubt that he did a lot of good work, but he also had some very radical ideas which were not in line with the consensus of traditional mainstream Islam.

There is a reknowned scholar, Mufti Taqi Usmani, who wrote a book on this subject, and in it he set out the case for the history of Muawiyah in context, and he refuted the claims made by Maududi and the Shia. I think it would be useful to have a look at it, the only drawback is that it was originally written in Urdu, I think it was called Muawiyah aur Tariqa Haqeeqath (Muawiyah's True History), or something like that. I hope it's been translated into English, but I'm not sure.

[IbnAbdullah]

It's strange, people are going to believe Maududi and accuse a great companion of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w (Muawiya r.a) who was the leader of the faithful. According to Quran we are not supposed to trust news from a fasiq unless it is confirmed. Before accepting any report which Mududi quotes, we need to check the authenticity of that. Besides Maududi was a a so called syed, from the progeny of Ali r.a and most of the so called syeds are idiots in the head.

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

It's strange, people are going to believe Maududi and accuse a great companion of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w (Muawiya r.a) who was the leader of the faithful. According to Quran we are not supposed to trust news from a fasiq unless it is confirmed. Before accepting any report which Mududi quotes, we need to check the authenticity of that. Besides Maududi was a a so called syed, from the progeny of Ali r.a and most of the so called syeds are idiots in the head.

Ya saeedatee, I was questioning the authenticity of Maududi's quotes.

[Liam_Saiful_Din]

From The Ethics of Disagreement in Islam by Ta Ha Jabir al Alwani

It is reported thatMu’Awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan asked Dirar ibn Damrah al Kinani o describe for him the character and demeanor of his adversary, Ali ibn Abi Talib. Dirar requested to be excused but Mu’Awiyah insisted. Dirar then said:

By Allah, Ali is far sighted and dynamic. What he says is decisive and his judgment is just. Knowledge and wisdom spring from his lips and are reflected in his actions. He shows no particular liking for the world and it’s adornments and finds company in the night and its darkness. By Allah, he was tenderhearted and was wont to weep profusely. He would engage in deep thought while wringing his hands and talking to himself. He preferred clothes that were just adequate and food that was simple.

He was, by Allah, like one of us. When we visited him, he would draw us close to him, and if we asked him for help, he would respond willingly. In spite of our closeness to each other we would hesitate to speak to him out of awe and reverence. He had a generous smile, dazzling like a string of pearls. He respected the pious and loved the poor. The strong would not find in him encouragement for any excesses and the weak would not despair of his justice.

I bear witness to Allah that on many occasions in the middle of the night I saw him swaying from side to side in his mihrab holding his beard in a disturbed and restless state and weeping like a bereaved person. Even now, it is as if I hear him saying: ‘Our Lord and Sustainer! Our Lord and Sustainer!’ while beseeching Him. And to the life of this world he says: ‘Do you display yourself to me? Do you look out expectantly for me? Vanish from my sight. Entice someone other than me. I have relinquished you irrevocably. Your life span is short, your company is wretched and your temptation is easy to fall into. Ah! Ah! How little is the provision, how far is the destination and how desolate is the way…’

In spite of himself, the tears trickled down Mu’Awiyah’s beard as he heard this account. As he wiped his beard with the palm of his hand, those who were present also wept bitterly. Mu’Awiyah remarked: “Such was Abu al Hasan, may Allah have mercy on him. Tell us of your grief for him, O’ Dirar” “My grief (for Ali) is like the grief of a mother whose only child is slain on her lap. Her tears will never dry up and her grief will never subside.” Saying this, Dirar stood up and departed.


Based on this, I doubt what Maududi said was true...

[rahat]

Salaam,

No offense Jamroll, but even you cannot deny that the Sahaba cursed eachother, and very publically and so forth. Your own scholars acknowledge this yet insist that this was somehow a good thing and that we should do as the current scholars tell us to do, but not like how the actual Sahaba infact did.

-
rahat

[Kaminyu]

Originally Posted by rahat

Salaam,

No offense Jamroll, but even you cannot deny that the Sahaba cursed eachother, and very publically and so forth. Your own scholars acknowledge this yet insist that this was somehow a good thing and that we should do as the current scholars tell us to do, but not like how the actual Sahaba infact did.

-
rahat

People tend to curse each other, as an expression when they're really upset with each other. People get upset with each other all the time, so why would it suprise anyone? It isn't necessarily a "good thing", it's just something that happens.

Why is it necessary to assume that people cursing each other over some temporal dispute 1400 years ago, is such an important issue, that you need to turn it into a religious practice?

If person A curses person B over some dispute between them, does that mean it's alright for person C to come in, long after the fact, and start cursing either of them, when he isn't even involved? Somehow, I don't think so.

[rahat]

Salaam,

Firstly: It is not at all a Shia practice to curse the Sahaba, nor is it within the Shia ideology. It is the cultural practice of some individuals who are Shia, but it is not within our philosophy. In proper Shia belief, the Sahaba of the Prophet are revered highly. Although we do have a different definitino of Sahaba than Ahlus Sunnah.

Second: We do not believe the Sunni view is consistant. Your beliefs are as follows:

Follow Allah;
Follow the Prophet;
The Best way to do either/both is to imitate all of the Sahaba who are considered the best of all people after the Prophets;
Neither the Prophets nor Sahaba were infallible.

I hope I got it right, if I am wrong correct me and I will apologize. I do acknowledge that some sunnis view the Prophet as infallible, but my understanding is that they are not the majority.

So if those beliefs are on the table:

why is it that everyone hates Shias for pointing out acts of fallibility by the Sahaba? If they're fallible, and they are an integral part of Islamic history, what is the problem?

If the Sahaba did something, and they are the pinnacle of taqlid, then why do people get upset at people for doing the same thing or pointing it out?

-
rahat