Question about / for Maturidis

[Jaysh]

How do Maturidis differ from Asharis when it comes to the Sifat?

Do Maturidis do taweel and say 'yad' can mean things like al-quwwa?

Or do they merely do tafweed?

And do they say that Allah [swt] is fawq al-'Arsh or not? And what do they mean by that? Do they take the haqeeqi meaning of this or majazi? Most importantly, is their position the same as the Asharis on this matter?

And is there any difference between Maturidis in general and Deobandis in specific? Do Deobandis do more tafweed than other Maturidis, or do all Maturidis do a lot of tafweed?

Please no links, no long articles, and no circuitous usage of words.

I want a cliffs note version....not even cliffs note, more like spark notes. Keep all posts about as long as mine.

[jinnzaman]

I've only studied rudimentary ilm ul kalam with Deobandi 'Ulema, so I can't speak on behalf of the entire Maturidi school, but Deobandis don't necessarily have a homogenous view on some of these issues. Some appear closer to Salafis where they affirm the text but consign the meaning to Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). My teacher, who studied under Mufti Taqi Usmani, gave me the impression that it is disliked to engage in ta'weel, but it becomes necessary at times to refute certain groups.

I have my notes from my classes, but I'm gonna be busy for the next few days. I can try and look up the exact statements if you like.

[Jaysh]

jinnzaman said

I've only studied rudimentary ilm ul kalam with Deobandi 'Ulema, so I can't speak on behalf of the entire Maturidi school, but Deobandis don't necessarily have a homogenous view on some of these issues. Some appear closer to Salafis where they affirm the text but consign the meaning to Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). My teacher, who studied under Mufti Taqi Usmani, gave me the impression that it is disliked to engage in ta'weel, but it becomes necessary at times to refute certain groups.

Doooode, thank you! I thought I was the only one who thought this! I really thought that the Deobandis differ amongst themselves...and sometimes I talk to them, and I'm like 'errrmmm, you sound Salafi'.

But I think they rely on tafweed a lot, which makes them differ from Salafis.

What I've found though is that they don't like to talk about aqeedah at all. I don't know...just my feeling. It reminded me of talking to HT members about their beliefs...got vague answers only, almost as if it's a closely guarded secret.

[jinnzaman]

Jaysh said

Doooode, thank you! I thought I was the only one who thought this! I really thought that the Deobandis differ amongst themselves...and sometimes I talk to them, and I'm like 'errrmmm, you sound Salafi'.

But I think they rely on tafweed a lot, which makes them differ from Salafis.

What I've found though is that they don't like to talk about aqeedah at all. I don't know...just my feeling. It reminded me of talking to HT members about their beliefs...got vague answers only, almost as if it's a closely guarded secret.

Aqeedah isn't really a big deal for Deobandis. They appreciate the ilm ul kalam tradition, but aren't obsessed with it. Even when they do discuss ilm ul kalam, its on a much more simplistic level then the Ashari 'Ulema who get into complex discussions about things. I would strongly recommend Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi's "Answer to Modernism."

In terms of ikhtilaaf, there are different streams of thought on aqeedah issues and the reason why its not a big deal for them is that they realize the harms of these sorts of discussions on one's spiritual state and tend to refrain from engaging in it.

If you look at Deobandi aqeedah, in my opinion, it is smack dab in the middle in terms of moderation.

They don't get into ilm ul kalam as much as some of the Asharis do. They don't get into the extreme anthropomorphism of some of the Salafis. They're pretty hardcore about Shias and Ahmadis. They're balanced in a lot of ways.

[Jaysh]

jinnzaman said

They don't get into the extreme anthropomorphism of some of the Salafis. .

Salafis are not anthropomorphic, let alone 'extreme anthropomorphic.'

[jinnzaman]

Jaysh said

Salafis are not anthropomorphic, let alone 'extreme anthropomorphic.'

I think I wrote that sentence in a grammatically incorrect fashion. I did not mean to describe salafis as "extreme," rather, I intended to say "and some of the extremists among the Salafis" are anthropomorphic.

[Abdul_Karim]

jinnzaman said

My teacher, who studied under Mufti Taqi Usmani, gave me the impression that it is disliked to engage in ta'weel, but it becomes necessary at times to refute certain groups.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

So Allah's attributes change when you have to refute someone?

[jinnzaman]

Abdul_Karim said

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

So Allah's attributes change when you have to refute someone?

The attributes do not change, they remain the same, but they are explained in a different manner according to people's circumstances. For example, citing textual proofs to a rationalist isn't sufficient. Thats what that means.

[kamuzrana]

I like this discussion. I like it when jinnz and jaysh talk or argue or just make proverbial cyber goo goo eyes at each other.

makes for good forum reading.

go on about more similarities. so much muslim harmony.

[Jaysh]

jinnzaman said

The attributes do not change, they remain the same, but they are explained in a different manner according to people's circumstances. For example, citing textual proofs to a rationalist isn't sufficient. Thats what that means.

Brother, I am a simple minded Salafi: I don't understand what you mean. If the attributes do not change, then why does the explanation of them change? That makes no sense.

[jinnzaman]

Jaysh said

Brother, I am a simple minded Salafi: I don't understand what you mean. If the attributes do not change, then why does the explanation of them change? That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

The Sahabah (radhi allahu anhum) didn't discuss complex theological issues, yet among all groups, the Asharis and the Hanbalis, there were different discussions. Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah's explanation against kalam was completely different from that of Imam Ahmad's explanations of why kalam is wrong.

Explanations change over time. Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?

[m_ali_qazi]

jinnzaman said

It makes perfect sense.

ooooooooooo

jaysh you gonna let him talk to you like that?

[m_ali_qazi]

Jaysh said

That makes no sense.

jinnz you gonna let him talk to you like that?

[Timbit]

It does make perfect sense. You have to explain some concepts differently to different people.
Same point AmroodWala was trying to make in your Wifely Obedience thread, Jayshie.

And some Deobandis do sound like Salafis.
Extreme Muslims all sound like one another anyway.

[jinnzaman]

m_ali_qazi said

jinnz you gonna let him talk to you like that?

Yes. He's my beewi No 1. All couples fight.

He's so cute when he's mad.



On a serious note, I got mad respect for Jaysh. I think he produces some excellent work.