[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Didn't see the original video, but why would anybody dislike Shaykh Hamza?

Obviously, people who are not Asharis/Maturidis and not Soofis would take issue with some of his beliefs which he propagates.

[bluey]

Take the good from the Scholars and leave what is bad.

Also, [this isn't directed at anyone in particular] I feel we need to be more sincere and gentle in our approach when dealing with somebody we don't agree with or while giving naseeha. I've seen this here and elsewhere, people usually resort to name-calling and insults the first instant instead of disagreeing respectfully.

I know for a fact that most people when dealt with in this way, will automatically reject and rebel when insulted, although they may even see the truth in what you say because of your 'harshness' and 'I'm right-your wrong' attitude. A better way is to be polite while disagreeing and to ask questions before resorting to judging others, your 'opponent' will have more likely chances of listening to you then before and will not be put off completely. We also need to keep in mind that Non-Muslims too frequent the forums, and the image we make while arguing... is not so pleasant and not good for dawah.

Manners is also a very crucial part of the deen. Especially when we deal with our Brothers' and Sisters' in Islam.

It is narrated in Sahih Bukhari that 'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr said, "The Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, was never obscene or coarse. Rather, he used to tell us that the best among us were those with the best manners.

The Prophet (saaws) said: "The most beloved of Allah's servants to Allah are those with the best manners." [Hadith - At-Tabaraanee]

And Allah subhanna wa ta'ala knows best.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Was he making the same mistake over and over again after being advised about it? If the advise was about something basic and simple, then its understandable if laymen were the ones advising, but if that wasn't the case, then the question also arises if the advisor was competent and capable of giving such advice.

As for whether Shk. Hamza Yusuf is a scholar or not, there is no question about it whatsoever. I have personally, to myself, disagreed with some things he said [or was have reported to have said] in the past, but that didn't stop me from listening to him, and it certainly never made me doubt or reject his scholarly status.

His error is in his attitude which leads to him making claims which he then later retracts.

The sign of an Alim isn't just knowledge it's also knowing the adab of scholarship. An ordinary Muslim making an untrue claim is bad enough far worse is a reputed 'scholar' making claims which he then is forced to withdraw.

I'm not sure whether you're aware but Hamza Yusuf has explicitly stated that he's *not* a Scholar. See for instance the blurb on the back of his earlier DVD's such as 'Dajjal'

Lets not even go into links with Ian Dallas his former father-in-law..

[Salika]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

His error is in his attitude which leads to him making claims which he then later retracts.

The sign of an Alim isn't just knowledge it's also knowing the adab of scholarship. An ordinary Muslim making an untrue claim is bad enough far worse is a reputed 'scholar' making claims which he then is forced to withdraw.

I'm not sure whether you're aware but Hamza Yusuf has explicitly stated that he's *not* a Scholar. See for instance the blurb on the back of his earlier DVD's such as 'Dajjal'

Lets not even go into links with Ian Dallas his former father-in-law..

No scholar calls themselves a scholar so that doesn't mean much.

And who cares about Ian Dallas? It's pretty clear that he (along with many others) doesn't associate himself with him anymore.

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by bluey

Take the good from the Scholars and leave what is bad.

Also, [this isn't directed at anyone in particular] I feel we need to be more sincere and gentle in our approach when dealing with somebody we don't agree with or while giving naseeha. I've seen this here and elsewhere, people usually resort to name-calling and insults the first instant instead of disagreeing respectfully.

I know for a fact that most people when dealt with in this way, will automatically reject and rebel when insulted, although they may even see the truth in what you say because of your 'harshness' and 'I'm right-your wrong' attitude. A better way is to be polite while disagreeing and to ask questions before resorting to judging others, your 'opponent' will have more likely chances of listening to you then before and will not be put off completely. We also need to keep in mind that Non-Muslims too frequent the forums, and the image we make while arguing... is not so pleasant and not good for dawah.

Manners is also a very crucial part of the deen. Especially when we deal with our Brothers' and Sisters' in Islam.

It is narrated in Sahih Bukhari that 'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr said, "The Prophet of Allah, upon him be peace, was never obscene or coarse. Rather, he used to tell us that the best among us were those with the best manners.

The Prophet (saaws) said: "The most beloved of Allah's servants to Allah are those with the best manners." [Hadith - At-Tabaraanee]

And Allah subhanna wa ta'ala knows best.

OK thanks for the reminder. Jazakh-Allah Khairan. I realize I'm being more of a jerk than usual. Will try to improve to less of a jerk, or at least not-that-much-of-a-jerk insha-Allah.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Salika

No scholar calls themselves a scholar so that doesn't mean much.

And who cares about Ian Dallas? It's pretty clear that he (along with many others) doesn't associate himself with him anymore.

The first sentence is not true. Permitting yourself to be called/introduced as a scholar is the same as calling yourself a scholar and secondly in the blurb he *explicitly* rejected any association with people who called him a scholar. There's a bit of a difference

Where has he stated that he's disassociated himself from Ian Dallas ?

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

The first sentence is not true. Permitting yourself to be called/introduced as a scholar is the same as calling yourself a scholar and secondly in the blurb he *explicitly* rejected any association with people who called him a scholar. There's a bit of a difference

Brother, my experience has been that almost all scholars in the West deny that they are scholars.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

His error is in his attitude which leads to him making claims which he then later retracts.

The sign of an Alim isn't just knowledge it's also knowing the adab of scholarship. An ordinary Muslim making an untrue claim is bad enough far worse is a reputed 'scholar' making claims which he then is forced to withdraw.

I'm not sure whether you're aware but Hamza Yusuf has explicitly stated that he's *not* a Scholar. See for instance the blurb on the back of his earlier DVD's such as 'Dajjal'

Lets not even go into links with Ian Dallas his former father-in-law..

Most Western Scholars would hesitate to be called such being they feel that they don't compare to their Middle Eastern counterparts.

Shaykh Hamza also hesitates to call himself or be called Shaykh.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

The first sentence is not true. Permitting yourself to be called/introduced as a scholar is the same as calling yourself a scholar and secondly in the blurb he *explicitly* rejected any association with people who called him a scholar. There's a bit of a difference

Where has he stated that he's disassociated himself from Ian Dallas ?

No it's no the same. Often times, students of scholars will still stand or give titles to their teachers, despite their teachers not allowing them. I've seen this myself.

And I've heard him say in a lecture how many of his own teachers, who have studied years more than Shaykh Hamza, also refuse to call themselves scholars.

His disassociation is pretty clear. I think breaking a 'baya' with someone then not associating with them or speaking of them afterwards in addition to speaking critically of tariqas is a pretty clear disassociation. If you think there's some secret underground association, the burden of proof is on you.

[vegetables]

i like Hazma Yusuf because he caters to my eurocentric liberal mentality©

[Revert]

Originally Posted by vegetables

i like Hazma Yusuf because he caters to my eurocentric liberal mentality©

Best post ever!

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

The first sentence is not true. Permitting yourself to be called/introduced as a scholar is the same as calling yourself a scholar and secondly in the blurb he *explicitly* rejected any association with people who called him a scholar. There's a bit of a difference

Where has he stated that he's disassociated himself from Ian Dallas ?

As Salika and others have said, many scholars are too shy to call themselves as such, and they reject that title and simple refer to themselves as students / seekers of knowledge. When you stand in the halls of giants, you know very clearly where you are and what they had reached, so of course you'll refuse to refer yourself with the same title as they were referred to.

All humans makes mistakes, we all trip and fall; and we try our best to make excuses for them. In the case with Shk. Hamza, I firmly believe his good outweighs any bad, be it real or merely perceived as such.

Wouldn't you agree?

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by vegetables

i like Hazma Yusuf because he caters to my eurocentric liberal mentality©

Shaykh Hamza is neither Eurocentric nor liberal, in fact, he's pretty ardently anti-Eurocentric and illiberal.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Shaykh Hamza is neither Eurocentric nor liberal, in fact, he's pretty ardently anti-Eurocentric and illiberal.

Yes but his words appeal to my Eurocentric liberal nature...

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Salika