[Variable]

Originally Posted by Khairan

However, you must understand that *even while accepting that this is what Christians believe* Muslims have a very hard time processing this concept because of our notion of tawhid. We look at the "unity of God" in a very different manner, and it is incompatible with making any "part" of God at all distinct from another part, especially to the degree where these parts have distinct personalities. In other words, while the definition of "Trinity-as-unity" is not incomprehensible, to us it is utterly incompatible with pure monotheism.

this is what I've been saying for a long time.

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Variable

this is what I've been saying for a long time.

My point is that when Muslims say they don't understand how the Trinity is monotheism, it's not because they don't get what Trinitarians say about it but rather because they don't see how what Trinitarians believe is compatible with monotheistic belief.

If this is what you've been trying to say from the get-go, then granted and I think we have been failing to communicate. It sounded to me as if you were saying that Muslims somehow "know" that Trinitarianism is a kind of monotheism but won't acknowledge it as such because they feel obligated to reject it. I think the former idea and the latter are quite different though.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Khairan

My point is that when Muslims say they don't understand how the Trinity is monotheism, it's not because they don't get what Trinitarians say about it but rather because they don't see how what Trinitarians believe is compatible with monotheistic belief.

If this is what you've been trying to say from the get-go, then granted and I think we have been failing to communicate. It sounded to me as if you were saying that Muslims somehow "know" that Trinitarianism is a kind of monotheism but won't acknowledge it as such because they feel obligated to reject it. I think the former idea and the latter are quite different though.

Actually, I was editing my post when my friend called me and had to run. The bolded part is what I think.

Specifically this: "In other words, while the definition of "Trinity-as-unity" is not incomprehensible, to us it is utterly incompatible with pure monotheism."

"To us" I read as though you were saying "it isn't compatible with Islam's version of monotheism". That's fine, but I don't see how that prevents one from understanding in some capacity how another views things. I don't believe that God created us to worship him five times a day, or circle a cube-shaped building in distant Arabia - but I can understand how others believe in that.

Then I see inaccurate statements like this:

Christians don't believe in that bit. They only believe in the Trinity. Not the J-Trinity, but the Father, Son, Holy Ghost trinity

Yes they do, believe in one God.

In any case, people calling Christians non-Monotheists for being Trinitarians, have as impact on the reality of Christian beliefs as people saying 'Muslims believe in a moon god' has on the truth of their belief in Islam.

[Timbit]

Ah, Variable... still acting like a troll, I see.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Ah, Variable... still acting like a troll, I see.

Yeh, nice to see you too

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh, nice to see you too

It is nice, isn't it?
And I was (half) kidding.

I'm just surprised about your view, that Muslims somehow "know" that Trinitarianism is a kind of monotheism but won't acknowledge it as such because they feel obligated to reject it. Wow.

I'm not going to repeat what Khairan said though. I have a feeling you're not going to acknowledge or understand it no matter how many times we explain it.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Variable

Then I see inaccurate statements like this:

Christians don't believe in that bit. They only believe in the Trinity. Not the J-Trinity, but the Father, Son, Holy Ghost trinity

How is my statement inaccurate? There are three sentences in the statement.

I'm pretty sure that Christians don't believe in the J-Trinity, since that is a made-up just-for fun Islamica phrase.

You agreed yourself that Christians believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as the Trinity.

The sentence where I said "Christians don't believe in that bit", was in direct response to Jaysh quoting "Hear O Israel your God is One!" which if you know your Bible is from Deutronomy, which is part of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is the Jewish part of the Bible. Christians believe that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament in terms of the rules of their religion.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

It is nice, isn't it?
And I was (half) kidding.

I'm just surprised about your view, that Muslims somehow "know" that Trinitarianism is a kind of monotheism but won't acknowledge it as such because they feel obligated to reject it. Wow.

Well actually that part of my argument was rubbished because some Muslims posted above that they understand it. They don't believe in it, but understand it.

I'm not going to repeat what Khairan said though. I have a feeling you're not going to acknowledge or understand it no matter how many times we explain it.

I fully acknowledge it. I acknowledge that we're operating with different definitions of 'monotheism', an Islamic one and a Christian one. I understand how each sees the nature of God through their own lenses... I don't share either view, but it's not too far out of my way to do so.


And I'm not acting like a troll . The last time you said that I realized which part you were talking about and apologized for it. In here I've said nothing like that.

[Blue_Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Variable

They believe those are three parts of one thing.

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Okay, try and explain it.

Now hold on a second. I'm no believer in the trinity here and I certainly never thought I'd be jumping to its defense like this. But really, why SHOULD Christians have to explain the trinity in a way that makes logical sense? If God exists beyond the boundaries of human logic, why is it so important the trinity makes sense to Muslims, or Jews or ANYONE for that matter? It sounds like we're trying to put our own common god into a logic box here.

[Timbit]

Trolling is when you dismiss something that somebody says (like you did last time) and/or tell somebody what they believe (which you're doing now). Muslims are telling you they don't understand it, but you insist they do and are just pretending not to 'cause they have to do that.

Yeah, I "understand" it on the surface level. It's not a difficult concept... one God, three aspects to Him. Examining it critically though... no, I don't understand it. And I don't see how it can be called monotheism in any sense of the word.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Trolling is when you dismiss something that somebody says (like you did last time) and/or tell somebody what they believe (which you're doing now). Muslims are telling you they don't understand it, but you insist they do and are just pretending not to 'cause they have to do that.

I'm a troll for saying I suspect that many Muslims do get it but say they don't? I don't think that's trolling at all. It may be 'being frank', but it's not trolling.

I'm sure many Muslims don't really get it, and have never really looked into it from a Christian perspective.

Yeah, I "understand" it on the surface level. It's not a difficult concept... one God, three aspects to Him. Examining it critically though... no, I don't understand it. And I don't see how it can be called monotheism in any sense of the word.

Because they believe in one God (regardless of details, it's one God) - the definition of monotheism in the English language. This is what Christians say, and some groups (many Muslims and others) say "no... that's not what you believe, this is what you belive" - your defnition of trolling.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

I'm a troll for saying I suspect that many Muslims do get it but say they don't? I don't think that's trolling at all. It may be 'being frank', but it's not trolling.

I'm sure many Muslims don't really get it, and have never really looked into it from a Christian perspective.

Because they believe in one God (regardless of details, it's one God) - the definition of monotheism in the English language. This is what Christians say, and some groups (many Muslims and others) say "no... that's not what you believe, this is what you belive" - your defnition of trolling.

1. It's trolling if you ignore what Muslims have to say about it.

2. I knew you were gonna say that. But Muslims don't say "No, that's not what you believe; this is what you believe". They say "Okay, that's what you believe but we don't understand how that's monotheism."

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Blue_Phoenix

Now hold on a second. I'm no believer in the trinity here and I certainly never thought I'd be jumping to its defense like this. But really, why SHOULD Christians have to explain the trinity in a way that makes logical sense? If God exists beyond the boundaries of human logic, why is it so important the trinity makes sense to Muslims, or Jews or ANYONE for that matter? It sounds like we're trying to put our own common god into a logic box here.

They are under no obligation to explain any part of their faith to us. But it is a missionary religion, just like ours, and the Trinity is the most fundamental concept in Christianity, so doesn't it make sense that their audience (us) should be able to comprehend the basics of their religion before accepting it?

Also, the quotes you put together in your post are out of context. I said "Ok, explain it" because the other poster was insinuating that since he understood the concept of Trinity that the rest of us should immediately understand the logic of it also. It was not an unsolicited "ok, explain it."

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

1. It's trolling if you ignore what Muslims have to say about it.

I'm not.

2. I knew you were gonna say that. But Muslims don't say "No, that's not what you believe; this is what you believe". They say "Okay, that's what you believe but we don't understand how that's monotheism."

"Ergo you believe in polytheism"


Anyway, I can appreciate what Bluephoenix was making a point about... something I was thinking about before. Whenever the topic comes up regarding the nature of Allah's guidance of people to or away from Islam, or predestiny etc. I'm met with the same response - "There are simply some things our limited brains cannot understand, leave it to Allah" There is little of the same being afforded Christians and the nature of their belief in the Trinity, the incomprehendable and unknowable factor.