[nooni]

I actually have a sincere question that i have always wanted to ask to those who want to move to Muslim countries and say they want to raise their children in an Islamic society. this is a sincere question: what makes you so sure that your children will not be corrupt by the much growing "western culture" that is captivating the youth in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any Muslim country?

im not agaisnt anyone moving away to muslim countries, may Allah(SWT) make things easier on them but this just seems to be the main reason why people want to go.

I personally noe of two families, one moved to Saudi and the other Egypt for the reason that they wanted to raise their kids in an Islamic environment. Both families came back to America later and their children were totally westernized because of how much western influence (on tv, media, talking to other kids around them) is found in Saudi and Egyptian culture.

[YOUSUFofSD]

Originally Posted by nooni

I actually have a sincere question that i have always wanted to ask to those who want to move to Muslim countries and say they want to raise their children in an Islamic society. this is a sincere question: what makes you so sure that your children will not be corrupt by the much growing "western culture" that is captivating the youth in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any Muslim country?

No ones ever 100 percent sure, but I think the chances are either better or much better if you have them in a better surrounding, inshallah.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by YOUSUFofSD

No ones ever 100 percent sure, but I think the chances are either better or much better if you have them in a better surrounding, inshallah.

i dont noe, i personally disagree only because the chance of a muslim kid coming out messed up in an Islamic environment is pretty much the same as a muslim kid coming out with proper adab and akhlaq in a non Islamic environment.

i dont noe, maybe its just my experience with personally noeing families who have gone through both "systems" , i have come to the conclusion that it really just depends on the parenting style.

[YOUSUFofSD]

Originally Posted by nooni

i dont noe, i personally disagree only because the chance of a muslim kid coming out messed up in an Islamic environment is pretty much the same as a muslim kid coming out with proper adab and akhlaq in a non Islamic environment.

i dont noe, maybe its just my experience with personally noeing families who have gone through both "systems" , i have come to the conclusion that it really just depends on the parenting style.

Oh i agree for sure that parenting has most to do with it...though i would have to disagree and say that our environment has a decent amount to do with it also.

If im not mistaken there is a hadith where the prophet says to hang out with the people that you want to be like...

[nooni]

Originally Posted by YOUSUFofSD

Oh i agree for sure that parenting has most to do with it...though i would have to disagree and say that our environment has a decent amount to do with it also.

If im not mistaken there is a hadith where the prophet says to hang out with the people that you want to be like...

yupyup, i think that has to do with an even bigger part... i blv the hadith says something along the lines of show me your friends, and ill tell you who you are. and i totally blv this 100%

but the problem ppl seem to be in denial about is yes there is ALOT of good in muslim countries, but they are no where near angelic places with no haram etc. every haram that one can find here in the states can be found all over the muslim world.

[shadha]

nooni: I actually have a sincere question that i have always wanted to ask to those who want to move to Muslim countries and say they want to raise their children in an Islamic society. this is a sincere question: what makes you so sure that your children will not be corrupt by the much growing "western culture" that is captivating the youth in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any Muslim country?

I think the problem is when parents think they can fully escape Western culture.

I do think raising Muslim children in an Islamically rounded environment is of course better. I like that my children would hear the Athan 5 times a day. That they would be within walking distance from Masjids. That there is a certain level of decorum and modesty out on the streets. That they would be around other Muslims. That their education would be Islamically appropriate. Of course, it won't be a picture-perfect Islamic environment with perfect Muslims but the foundation is there. Although, I do fear that if they are in a Muslim society that it may dwindle down to them being Muslim just because everyone else is. Get me?

Which is why I do like the idea of my children struggling. I know growing up Muslim in a non-Muslim environment is tough cookies but with the right parental tools, support, and guidance, I do think the kids will be stronger Muslims. They'll have to fight for their Muslim identity.


shadha-

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by shadha

Correction, objected for them to be implemented in the West at this time- especially since you are already more than free to implement many of them into your lifestyle.

I may be mistaken, but I don't recall ever debating applying the Shari'ah in any Western non-Muslim state.

Firstly, this was not the first time within two days he tried to call me out for not being apart of the Ummah, "us", and being one of them. Would you like me to link you to his posts?

I haven't been on Islamica as often as I usually am because of exams so I wasn't aware of those comments. If he's been haranguing you, then you have every right to state your grievance against him, however, I couldn't help but notice a tint of disdain in your post regarding those who performed hijra overseas.

Secondly, which Hadiths would make me not want to live in an Islamic environment? Is there a Hadith about women not being allowed to drive? No. Is there a Hadith permitting you to beat your women? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding women to be apart and active contributors to society and their Masjid community? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding the education of women? No. So where would I have a problem? I don't have to agree with every single Hadith in order to feel "comfortable" and "fit in" with an Islamic environment. That is absolutely ridiculous to try to claim.

There are hadeeth that discuss gender segregation, the three pronouncements for talaq, that limit the movement of women in society, etc.

However, I was also referring more to the criminal aspects of Islamic law such as stoning, lashing, amputation not to mention disparate treatment on gender issues such as inheritance, witnessing, all of which are established either in the Qur'an or through mutawattir narrations. While rejecting a isolated or singular narrations may be merely sinful and not disbelief, rejecting narrations with multiple chains of transmission that rise to a sufficient level of probity is kufr. Based on our previous discussions, you seemed to have problems with the things I highlighted in the first sentence of this paragraph.

As I have said from the start, I don't have a problem with Islamic societies, I have a problem with societies who practice HISlam and front like it's the real thing. So again, no I would not have a problem living an a very Islamic environment- if it is indeed Islamic. Saudi, quite frankly, is not "very Islamic" by any stretch of the imagination.


shadha-

The problem with your charge of patriarchy being present in traditional interpretations is that it presumes its own self-truths, which is essentially a circular argument. In order for you to show that the "egalitarian" (read: Western) understanding of Islam that you posit is true, you have to bring an interpretation that has historical continuity from the time of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) up until today. If you cannot, then this shows that the basis of your reasoning isn't from Islam or Herslam, but from a foreign source which is an invalid source in scriptural interpretation. In terms of Saudiyyah being Islamic or not, thats debateable, but it is formal state apparatus is more Islamic than other Muslim states and its implementation of the Shari'ah qualifies it as an Islamic form of government. Whether it is a good Islamic government or a bad one is a qualitative issue.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by nooni

I actually have a sincere question that i have always wanted to ask to those who want to move to Muslim countries and say they want to raise their children in an Islamic society. this is a sincere question: what makes you so sure that your children will not be corrupt by the much growing "western culture" that is captivating the youth in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any Muslim country?

im not agaisnt anyone moving away to muslim countries, may Allah(SWT) make things easier on them but this just seems to be the main reason why people want to go.

I personally noe of two families, one moved to Saudi and the other Egypt for the reason that they wanted to raise their kids in an Islamic environment. Both families came back to America later and their children were totally westernized because of how much western influence (on tv, media, talking to other kids around them) is found in Saudi and Egyptian culture.

Most of the people I know who engaged in hijra were those who moved into areas of the Muslim world that had very little interaction with Western culture. The Emigrants that I know do not watch television or listen to music or go to movies and they wouldn't allow their children to do that either. I'm not clear how their children would interact with "Western" culture in the absence of mass media, so I don't think it would be a problem. Typically, if you live in a zawiyah or maddrasseh, its fairly isolated from the rest of the country, let alone the world.

I also think we need to distinguish xenophobic migration and hijra. Hijra is solely for the sake of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). When I was a kid, my parents always threatened to move me to Pakistan whenever I misbehaved. I wouldn't qualify that as hijra. Thats a cultural reaction.

[YOUSUFofSD]

Originally Posted by nooni

yupyup, i think that has to do with an even bigger part... i blv the hadith says something along the lines of show me your friends, and ill tell you who you are. and i totally blv this 100%

but the problem ppl seem to be in denial about is yes there is ALOT of good in muslim countries, but they are no where near angelic places with no haram etc. every haram that one can find here in the states can be found all over the muslim world.

agreed, there is a struggle just like in a non-muslim area but the support that you have i think is just so much more.

[YOUSUFofSD]

Originally Posted by shadha

nooni: I actually have a sincere question that i have always wanted to ask to those who want to move to Muslim countries and say they want to raise their children in an Islamic society. this is a sincere question: what makes you so sure that your children will not be corrupt by the much growing "western culture" that is captivating the youth in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any Muslim country?

I think the problem is when parents think they can fully escape Western culture.

I do think raising Muslim children in an Islamically rounded environment is of course better. I like that my children would hear the Athan 5 times a day. That they would be within walking distance from Masjids. That there is a certain level of decorum and modesty out on the streets. That they would be around other Muslims. That their education would be Islamically appropriate. Of course, it won't be a picture-perfect Islamic environment with perfect Muslims but the foundation is there. Although, I do fear that if they are in a Muslim society that it may dwindle down to them being Muslim just because everyone else is. Get me?

Which is why I do like the idea of my children struggling. I know growing up Muslim in a non-Muslim environment is tough cookies but with the right parental tools, support, and guidance, I do think the kids will be stronger Muslims. They'll have to fight for their Muslim identity.


shadha-

Agreed up until the last part, I don't think that it is better to subject them to all of the haram here taking a bigger chance then if you were living in a Muslim area. Granted no matter what you do, Allah's plan will happen, but you also have to give you and your family the best chance to be the best Muslims possible.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Most of the people I know who engaged in hijra were those who moved into areas of the Muslim world that had very little interaction with Western culture. The Emigrants that I do not watch television or listen to music or go to movies and they wouldn't allow their children to do that either.
.

yupyup. i agree. if your not going to expose them to music/movies/etc whether western or eastern, then they will have limited knowlegde to it.

but as i saw with the families i noe, they didnt allow any of htat stuff within their own house or children either and the children came back messed up. when asked pretty much why they are the way they are, they said the access to very haram things (porn, filthy music, etc) was everywhere in saudi and egyptian schools, islamic and non islamic ones.

one of my friends who lives in Saudi said that homosexuality is growing at an alarming rate amongst the youth in saudi schools because of so much segregation. she said that families trust when theyre children are at their friends house (who are many times children of the parents friends), and start to do haram things, simply because the parents are so clueless that this could happen in an islamic school in a muslim country. Allahu Alim , may Allah(SWT) keep us away from such sins, but i always ask myself what is the best balance in raising children because one day i want to be a parent inshallah and do the best i can.

[shadha]

jinnz: I may be mistaken, but I don't recall ever debating applying the Shari'ah in any Western non-Muslim state.

Yes, there was an entire thread about it. I don't remember which thread and honestly I don't feel like digging it up. It had something to do with Canadian Muslims wanting to have a Shari'ah legal system.

jinnz: I haven't been on Islamica as often as I usually am because of exams so I wasn't aware of those comments. If he's been haranguing you, then you have every right to state your grievance against him, however, I couldn't help but notice a tint of disdain in your post regarding those who performed hijra overseas.

Wouldn't you think I of all people would be more than happy to have America-bashers pack their **** up and leave? Why would I hold disdain against them? I would eagerly help them pack. I can't stand them. They are of no use to this country. My post you were referring to was of me finding it highly amusing when they return after all their bashing.

jinnz: There are hadeeth that discuss gender segregation, the three pronouncements for talaq, that limit the movement of women in society, etc.

Mind posting those Hadith?

jinnz: However, I was also referring more to the criminal aspects of Islamic law such as stoning, lashing, amputation not to mention disparate treatment on gender issues such as inheritance, witnessing, all of which are established either in the Qur'an or through mutawattir narrations. While rejecting a isolated or singular narrations may be merely sinful and not disbelief, rejecting narrations with multiple chains of transmission that rise to a sufficient level of probity is kufr. Based on our previous discussions, you seemed to have problems with the things I highlighted in the first sentence of this paragraph.

From the list you mentioned: "stoning, lashing, amputation not to mention disparate treatment on gender issues such as inheritance, witnessing," I only have a problem with stoning. I don't recall ever arguing against the other things you brought up. So again, why would I have trouble fitting in within an Islamic environment?


shadha-

[shadha]

Yousuf: Agreed up until the last part, I don't think that it is better to subject them to all of the haram here taking a bigger chance then if you were living in a Muslim area. Granted no matter what you do, Allah's plan will happen, but you also have to give you and your family the best chance to be the best Muslims possible.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant. Rereading my post, I don't think I was all that clear either.

I am not one who believes in throwing their kid to the wolves and hope they are strong enough to fight. That's not what I meant. At all. I don't even want my children in public school because I think the environment is not the best for them. I think one is able to successfully raise Muslim children in the West if they put their all into it. You don't have to be a tyrant but you have to be attentive. Lead by example. Explain why instead of just commanding. Give them choice even if their choice is against your own. Support them when they learn how to say no and face the consequences for saying yes, or visa-versa.


shadha-