[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Wa alaikum assalam

I don't think you and I are using the same definition of "hijra." I was using the term "hijra" not in the movement of people or animals, but for the specific purpose of pleasing Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). I thought you were arguing that people who move from a non-Muslim country to a Muslim country are doing so solely for economic reasons.

I'd say the bolded statement is only partially true. Muslims who leave the USA and go to the Islamic world probably have multiple reasons for doing it. Its such a major life-altering decision that it has to be multifactorial. I'm sure you're right that religion motivates many of them to varying degrees. But so does money. Thats why so many people migrate to the Emirates and Kuwait and Qatar and Saudi and even Malaysia rather than Sudan or Bangladesh or Egypt or Yemen or Pakistan. They want to have comfortable lives. Maybe comfort in an islamic milieu is their ideal. Allahu alam

And as you brought up, there are those who sell all their possessions and go off to yemen, like that buddy of yours (and John Walker Lindh). I'm sure religious motivations weigh in much more than cash money for them

[shadha]

jinnz: I think what Hanbali was getting is that you follow your nafs over the Shari'ah. But I could be totally misinterpreting him.
And in terms of the accusation that he engaged in "takfeer", this is absurd as well. Jaysh said she would live in the Kaafir compounds - the areas in Saudiyyah where non-Muslims live. Thats not the same as saying she's a non-Muslim.

I said: "Explain to me your many reasons as to why I wouldn't fit in with an ISLAMIC environment"

And he replied with: " I could write a whole book on why you wouldn't fit in."

Oki, so what sort of environment as a practicing Muslim would I fit into, since I wouldn't fit into an Islamic one? According to him, I belong with the kafirs. You are the company you keep. So I'm not Muslim enough for him to live an Islamic lifestyle within an Islamic environment?

And it's no surprise that he has yet to come up with at least a handful of reasons as to why I couldn't live in an Islamic environment.


shadha-

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by shadha

jinnz: I think what Hanbali was getting is that you follow your nafs over the Shari'ah. But I could be totally misinterpreting him.
And in terms of the accusation that he engaged in "takfeer", this is absurd as well. Jaysh said she would live in the Kaafir compounds - the areas in Saudiyyah where non-Muslims live. Thats not the same as saying she's a non-Muslim.

I said: "Explain to me your many reasons as to why I wouldn't fit in with an ISLAMIC environment"

And he replied with: " I could write a whole book on why you wouldn't fit in."

Oki, so what sort of environment as a practicing Muslim would I fit into, since I wouldn't fit into an Islamic one? According to him, I belong with the kafirs. You are the company you keep. So I'm not Muslim enough for him to live an Islamic lifestyle within an Islamic environment?

And it's no surprise that he has yet to come up with at least a handful of reasons as to why I couldn't live in an Islamic environment.


shadha-

Well, I thought it was pretty clear since you've previously objected to many of the essential components of what would be construed as an Islamic society such as the implementation of the Shari'ah to its fullest degree ranging from family law to criminal law to commercial law, etc.

I mean, you also reject hadeeth which is a huge component of Islamic jurisprudence which itself is the essential defining characteristic of an "Islamic" society as opposed to a non-Muslim society. The presence of capitalism, liberal democracy, and other Western ideologies makes a society "Western." I think what Hanbali was saying is that you identify yourself more with those characteristics rather then the traditional Islamic view. I don't see that as calling you a "kaffir" unless you concede that the ideas you hold are kufr.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by shadha

According to him, I belong with the kafirs. You are the company you keep.

Your words, not mine.

Surely you should ponder the wise words you have just said.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

I'd say the bolded statement is only partially true. Muslims who leave the USA and go to the Islamic world probably have multiple reasons for doing it. Its such a major life-altering decision that it has to be multifactorial. I'm sure you're right that religion motivates many of them to varying degrees. But so does money. Thats why so many people migrate to the Emirates and Kuwait and Qatar and Saudi and even Malaysia rather than Sudan or Bangladesh or Egypt or Yemen or Pakistan. They want to have comfortable lives. Maybe comfort in an islamic milieu is their ideal. Allahu alam

I wouldn't portray Kuwait, the Emirates or Qatar as having "Islamic" societies. I think the qualification for an Islamic society is one that implements the Shari'ah and recognizes the authority of Islamic scholarship. I wouldn't classify that as "hijrah" which has a strong spiritual component. Saudiyyah, Sudan, Egypt, Yemen, or Pakistan, on the other hand, implement more aspects of the Shari'ah and have strong scholarly traditions. Those things are lacking in Emirates, Kuwait, and Qatar. Most of the people I know that live in Dubai tell me that there are very few scholars who live there. So if a person were to migrate there, I would call that a migration, but not a hijrah. Most of the people I know who migrated were trying to hook up with either particular Sufis or 'Ulema such as those in Egypt, Yemen, Saudiyyah, and Pakistan.

And as you brought up, there are those who sell all their possessions and go off to yemen, like that buddy of yours (and John Walker Lindh). I'm sure religious motivations weigh in much more than cash money for them

If the act of moving is to be called "hijra" then the spiritual component has to be the dominant motivation and it has to be to a location that properly qualifies as an Islamic society.

[Hanbali]

Shadha, do you reject hadeeth altogether? Are you one of those Quran-only people?

[shadha]

jinnz: Well, I thought it was pretty clear since you've previously objected to many of the essential components of what would be construed as an Islamic society such as the implementation of the Shari'ah to its fullest degree ranging from family law to criminal law to commercial law, etc.

Correction, objected for them to be implemented in the West at this time- especially since you are already more than free to implement many of them into your lifestyle.

jinnz: I mean, you also reject hadeeth which is a huge component of Islamic jurisprudence which itself is the essential defining characteristic of an "Islamic" society as opposed to a non-Muslim society. The presence of capitalism, liberal democracy, and other Western ideologies makes a society "Western." I think what Hanbali was saying is that you identify yourself more with those characteristics rather then the traditional Islamic view. I don't see that as calling you a "kaffir" unless you concede that the ideas you hold are kufr.

Firstly, this was not the first time within two days he tried to call me out for not being apart of the Ummah, "us", and being one of them. Would you like me to link you to his posts?

Secondly, which Hadiths would make me not want to live in an Islamic environment? Is there a Hadith about women not being allowed to drive? No. Is there a Hadith permitting you to beat your women? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding women to be apart and active contributors to society and their Masjid community? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding the education of women? No. So where would I have a problem? I don't have to agree with every single Hadith in order to feel "comfortable" and "fit in" with an Islamic environment. That is absolutely ridiculous to try to claim.

As I have said from the start, I don't have a problem with Islamic societies, I have a problem with societies who practice HISlam and front like it's the real thing. So again, no I would not have a problem living an a very Islamic environment- if it is indeed Islamic. Saudi, quite frankly, is not "very Islamic" by any stretch of the imagination.


shadha-

[shadha]

Hanbali: Your words, not mine.
Surely you should ponder the wise words you have just said.

Surely you should stop *****-footing around and back up the crap you said. Give the reasons or keep it walking.


shadha-

[frosama]

Disputes like these are very unproductive and should be avoided. They simply cause fitnah. At worst, people should avoid the ad hominem fallacies.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by shadha

Hanbali: Your words, not mine.
Surely you should ponder the wise words you have just said.

Surely you should stop *****-footing around and back up the crap you said. Give the reasons or keep it walking.


shadha-

Shadha, basically you are a heretic. So whatever I say, you will say "that's not a part of Islam". Your understanding of "what is Islam" is heresy. As such, bringing up examples would be useless, since as a heretic, you would simply deny that these things are a part of Islam.

[shadha]

Hanbali: Shadha, basically you are a heretic. So whatever I say, you will say "that's not a part of Islam". Your understanding of "what is Islam" is heresy. As such, bringing up examples would be useless, since as a heretic, you would simply deny that these things are a part of Islam.

Right. Lovely cop-out.


shadha-

[displaced]

I guess jaysh is the only real muslim on islamica.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by displaced

I guess jaysh is the only real muslim on islamica.

I'm certainly the only superman on Islamica.

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by displaced

I guess jaysh is the only real muslim on islamica.

Or the "king"? Hehe

[displaced]

Originally Posted by PhDGirl

Or the "king"? Hehe

that, too.

the king of the real muslims of islamica. population: 1.