[AliFazel]

Tawassul

Quran says Those who are slain in the way of Allah are not dead they are Alive receiving sustainance


Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. [b]Nay, they live, finding their sustenance [/b in the presence of their Lord;
[Imram] 3:169

They are alive but we can not see them.

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah. "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
[Al - Baqrrah] 2:154


Those who seek help from prophet (saw) is considered biddah?

In fact to ask for help from any person other than Allah is considered biddah


SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS:

It has been narrated in Sahih al Bukhari by Anas, “Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say,

"O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123 Chapter “Istisqaa”, Narrated by Anas.

[Hanbali]

AliFazel, ever since you and your Shia friends stopped posting on Islamica, we've had no sectarian threads. Yet, as SOON as you come back, the FIRST thread you create is sectarian in nature. Why must everything you post have to do with your Shia religion? Why not talk about Islam in general? Why not post something beneficial to the Muslims as a whole, instead of divisive?

In any case, the hadeeth you posted is a great proof AGAINST your argument. You have argued that we should ask the dead for help. Yet, the hadeeth you posted is as follows:

"O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain."

(Sahih al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123 Chapter “Istisqaa”, Narrated by Anas.)

This a statement by Umar [ra] in which he says that the Sahabah USED to ask the Prophet [s] to make du`a when he was alive, but after he [s] died, then they would ask his uncle, Abbas [ra], to make du`a.

If we could ask the dead for help (and grave-worship as your people do), then there would have been no need for Umar [ra] and the rest of the Sahabah to switch from asking the Prophet [s] to asking his uncle instead. Umar [ra] could have simply gone to the Prophet's grave and asked the Prophet [s] to make du`a, or asked the Prophet [s] directly as you mushriks believe we can do. Instead, Umar [ra] went to Abbas [ra], who was still alive.

So this actually is a great proof against you, not for you. I am afraid you are making a fool of yourself.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS:

What do I think about this? I think the uncle wasn't dead was he? Umar (ra) said in the hadith you quoted, "We used to ask the Prophet to ask you for rain...", but then he died, so they couldn't ask the Prophet (saw) anymore. Because he was no longer around. So they asked his uncle, who was around, and funnily enough he was also... alive.

So you've just proved that you cannot ask anyone who has died for help, even the Prophet (saw). Yes, I agree with your argument that you've just proved. Thank you for coming round to the idea.

[Rida]

this hadith is usually used as proof for tawassul via the living, which i don't think many object to..

Wassalaam

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

AliFazel, ever since you and your Shia friends stopped posting on Islamica, we've had no sectarian threads. Yet, as SOON as you come back, ………………………………………………………

In any case, the hadeeth you posted is a great proof AGAINST your argument. ………………………………………………………………………….

(Sahih al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123 Chapter “Istisqaa”, Narrated by Anas.)
[/indent]This a statement by Umar [ra] in which he says that the Sahabah USED to ask the Prophet [s] to make du`a when he was alive, …………………………………

If we could ask the dead for help (and grave-worship as your people do), ……………………………..

So this actually is a great proof against you, not for you. I am afraid you are making a fool of yourself.

1) I do not believe with those who come up with fanatical response about tawasul, So I initiated this discussion – what’s wrong with that?

2) You just said you don’t like Sectarian conflicts – Why don’t you join in instead of using hostile words like ----“and grave-worship as your people do”

3) These discussion enhance the understanding and knowledge. What’s the harm in it

Originally Posted by Jamroll

What do I think about this? I think the uncle wasn't dead was he? Umar (ra) said in the hadith you quoted, "We used to ask the Prophet to ask you for rain...", but then he died, so they couldn't ask the Prophet (saw) anymore. Because he was no longer around. So they asked his uncle, who was around, and funnily enough he was also... alive.

So you've just proved that you cannot ask anyone who has died for help, even the Prophet (saw). Yes, I agree with your argument that you've just proved. Thank you for coming round to the idea.

Originally Posted by Rida

this hadith is usually used as proof for tawassul via the living, which i don't think many object to..

Wassalaam

I agree with you, the uncle was not dead – BUT one thing is clear Tawasul is not invalid in Islam.
I remember last time – On this forum it was said that Prophet (SAW) is alive in his grave – so If I go to the grave of Prophet (SAW) and talk to him – seek his help – why do the Saudi people beat us and drive us away?


And a remote question ---- Do the occupants of the grave eat and drink? Does prophet (SAWWS) and others who have given their lives for Islam, eat and drink in the grave?

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

it was said that Prophet (SAW) is alive in his grave

How many times have we gone over this!?

And by the way, you grave worshippers do not do tawassul like the Sufis do. At least the Sufis just ask the occupant of the grave to ask Allah [swt] for them. (I still think that is wrong but at least they are directing their request to Allah [swt] in a convoluted way.) So they say "O Prophet , make du`a for me...."

On the other hand, you grave worshippers directly ask the occupant of the grave for things. You say "Ya Ali Madad" (O Ali, YOU help me). You ask him directly for things. Same way with the Prophet [s].

So the Sufis will say "O Prophet, pray to God to give us rain..."

Whereas you will say "O Prophet, give us rain!" Shirk akbar.

– so If I go to the grave of Prophet (SAW) and talk to him – seek his help – why do the Saudi people beat us and drive us away?

Because it is shirk.

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

How many times have we gone over this!?

And by the way, you grave worshippers do not do tawassul like the Sufis do. At least the Sufis just ask the occupant of the grave to ask Allah [swt] for them. (I still think that is wrong but at least they are directing their request to Allah [swt] in a convoluted way.) So they say "O Prophet , make du`a for me...."

On the other hand, you grave worshippers directly ask the occupant of the grave for things. You say "Ya Ali Madad" (O Ali, YOU help me). You ask him directly for things. Same way with the Prophet [s].

So the Sufis will say "O Prophet, pray to God to give us rain..."

Whereas you will say "O Prophet, give us rain!" Shirk akbar.

Because it is shirk.

Hanbali --- You are 100% wrong in your statement.

You have no idea of our belief -- You are only talking from hearsay.

Only if you really researched you know where we stand.

------------------------------

All control is in the hands of Allah (swt).

Musa (A) could not part the sea without Allah's will.
Isa (A) could not cure the lepers or bring the dead to life, without Allah's will.
Zulkernain could not build the wall to contain Ajuj and Majuj, without Allah’s will.

The almighty creator has total over all control of all affairs.
A dead leaf on the tree would not leave its place and descend to the ground without Allah's will.

Even Israeel could not take the soul out of the body of the beings, without Allah's will.
Gibraeel could not convey the wahy, without Allah's will.

Not even an electron can move an iota in its orbit round the nucleus without Allah’s will.

So where did you get this Idea that Shias say Ya Ali madad - they consider Ali can help without Allah's will?


These accusations are no different from the countless accusations that we heard before.
i.e. Shias have a different Qur'an – the accusers have yet not produced this so called Qur’an. ---- Shias believe gibrael made a mistake of conveying the prophet hood to Muhammad instead of Ali. ---No proof ever produced to support this accusation. Shias are idol worshipers. Shias are Kafir – Shia Imams are prophets.

Al Hamdu lilah – truth is powerful and Lies are weak --- Truth always manifests itself while the lies and liars are always discredit and stand humiliated.

This Accusation --- Shias are grave worshippers comes from such filthy hearts. I challenge you or any person reading this to produce proof to this effect. Prove that we worship the occupants of the grave. Prove that we consider them as deity.

Lying is mother of all sins – A curse of Allah is on the liars.

Those who call us Kafir have themselves moved out of the sunnah of Prophet (SAWWS). They are manufacturing new laws and adding new innovations into Islam. They are guilty of distorting the word of Allah and the teachings of Prophet (SAW). -- Show me one authentic tradition Hadith) or ayiet of Qur’an that supports this verdict of kufr against us.

-------------------------------------------

Back to the subject.

I repeat my question.

Prom the above post you declare that tawasul is valid in Islam..

On this forum on other thraeds you people said, Prophet (SAW) is alive in his grave.

So if I go to the grave of Prophet (SAW) to seek his help. What wrong in this?
(Know that Allah is Al mighty who controls all affairs and nothing bypasses his will.)


Why do the Saudi beat people who go to the grave of prophet (SAWWS)


I also asked a remote question ----- People in the grave are alive ---- Do they eat or drink?

[Hanbali]

Ali Fazel, do not accuse me of lying. I did not deny that you believe that God is ultimately in control.

Rather, I merely said that you ask the Prophet [s] and Ali [ra] for help. You say "Ya Ali Maddad" and "Ya Ali, grant us rain". This is a statement of shirk and kufr which expels one outside the folds of Islam. There can be no majazi interpretation of statements of kufr.

Even the pagans used to say that ultimately Allah [swt] was the one who helped them, and that their idols were merely intermediaries. They would call out "ya uzza, grant us rain", even though they believed that ultimately it was Allah [swt] with whose permission everything was done.

As for the Prophet [s] being alive, we've discussed this a million times on this forum. Please don't keep bringing it up.

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Ali Fazel, do not accuse me of lying. I did not deny that you believe that God is ultimately in control.

Rather, I merely said that you ask the Prophet [s] and Ali [ra] for help. You say "Ya Ali Maddad" and "Ya Ali, grant us rain". This is a statement of shirk and kufr which expels one outside the folds of Islam. There can be no majazi interpretation of statements of kufr.

Even the pagans used to say that ultimately Allah [swt] was the one who helped them, and that their idols were merely intermediaries. They would call out "ya uzza, grant us rain", even though they believed that ultimately it was Allah [swt] with whose permission everything was done.

As for the Prophet [s] being alive, we've discussed this a million times on this forum. Please don't keep bringing it up.

No accusation to you -- Its a general speech -- those who claim they know what in the hearts of others and come out accusing others are liars - zalimeen.

----------------------------

Although this thread is about Tawasul --- And I'd prefer to discuss tawasul only - this side issue has cropped up. Its natural considering the circumstance and the past hostilities between the two factions.

Lets stick to HARD LOGIC.

Every action depends on Intention .

A person prays, with intention to worship Allah ----OR ---- With intention, to show others that he is pious.
A person gives sadka, with intention to please Allah ---- OR ---- with intention, to show others that he is generous.

The reward or punishment depends on the intention - not on the act. ---- <RIGHT>

So when a person knows very well that Allah (SWT) controls all affair - and he goes to grave of Prophet (SAWWS), and says "Ya Rasool-il-lah Madad - a3na maglub"
or he goes to the grave of Ali-ibn abi talib and say, "Ya Ali madad - a3na maghlub".

LOGIC dictated that he is saying O' Rusool-il-lah help me, intercede for me before Allah.

Mostly, these people who go to Prophet (SAWWS) consider themselves as sinners and they believe that Allah will not accept their pleas. BUT, if they go through Prophet (SAW) there is a better chances of getting their pleas heard.

How can any kadhi, sheik, mufti, mullah, hafiz ul qur'an, or what ever big titles they hold, come out and tell us that they know what is in the hearts of these people?

How can they say, that these people are expecting prophet (SAWWS) or Ali (A) to grant them their wish, bypassing Allah (SWT) --- How can they claim to know what's there in the hearts of these people?

He is a liar who says he can read the hearts of others.
And He who accuses others of fisk without proof, is a Zalim and mischief monger.

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE - referring to any group of muslimeen as grave worshippers without knowledge of their belief and their intention is wrong and a big fasaat.


Finally --- Some sayied Told me this story - You will find it interesting

[Ttranslation from one language to another does not do justice – I hope you will see the beauty of this message]

From the mosque some people (pious in appearance), were coming out after their prayers.

They saw a handsome young man eating some thing and giving some to a beautiful lady in hijab, standing next to him.

They came shouting - you shameless person - what is this behaviour – don’t you feel shame?

The young man pleaded - What have I done wrong? - What sin have I committed, that you rebuke me like this?

You standing here in front of us, in front of this mosque, eating like this with this lady – and you are asking us, “what wrong I have done?”

The young man said, this lady is my Mother, under whose feet is my jannah. We are tired and hungry having walked a long distance ---- Is it a crime to share food with your mother?

These Namazis walked away, ashamed and disguisted at their own filthy thoughts.

The mufti, mullah, molvi who accuse others of crime without knowledge and understanding are no different that these namazis with filthy thoughts.

[zeen]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

No accusation to you -- Its a general speech -- those who claim they know what in the hearts of others and come out accusing others are liars - zalimeen.

----------------------------

Although this thread is about Tawasul --- And I'd prefer to discuss tawasul only - this side issue has cropped up. Its natural considering the circumstance and the past hostilities between the two factions.

Lets stick to HARD LOGIC.

Every action depends on Intention .

A person prays, with intention to worship Allah ----OR ---- With intention, to show others that he is pious.
A person gives sadka, with intention to please Allah ---- OR ---- with intention, to show others that he is generous.

The reward or punishment depends on the intention - not on the act. ---- <RIGHT>

Not right. Your touching a gray area. We know that all actions are judged by intentions, however, we also know that the act has to be in accordance with the Shariah to have it accepted, regardless of intention. For instance, can I choose to pray 3 rakah for tahiyat-ul-masjid (instead of the 2 rakahs sunnah) for the sake of 'increasing' reward; indeed a good intention? Everyone will respond with 'of course not'. Thus, that is a simple proof for intentions not being sufficient to make an act right or praiseworthy.

So when a person knows very well that Allah (SWT) controls all affair - and he goes to grave of Prophet (SAWWS), and says "Ya Rasool-il-lah Madad - a3na maglub"
or he goes to the grave of Ali-ibn abi talib and say, "Ya Ali madad - a3na maghlub".

LOGIC dictated that he is saying O' Rusool-il-lah help me, intercede for me before Allah.

If I needed help on this forum and I was to say 'Ya Ali Fazel Help me' logically it'd mean that I'm calling you to help and not the moderator of the forum.

Further, Prophets and Shuhadah are indeed alive in their graves but they are not alive in the worldly sense. Their lives are of the barzakh.

They can NOT hear you at all whether you are standing infront of their graves or elsewhere.

Mostly, these people who go to Prophet (SAWWS) consider themselves as sinners and they believe that Allah will not accept their pleas. BUT, if they go through Prophet (SAW) there is a better chances of getting their pleas heard.

How can any kadhi, sheik, mufti, mullah, hafiz ul qur'an, or what ever big titles they hold, come out and tell us that they know what is in the hearts of these people?

You see, the problem is not that you make Tawassul rather, the problem is that you make tawassul through those that have passed away. You ascribe supernatural powers to the Prophet saw and Ali ra.

You believe that they become 'ALL HEARING' and 'ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE' after they die and this is Shirk because these attributes belong to Allah alone. By ascribing these exclusive attributes to the creation you are doing wrong to the creator.

How can they say, that these people are expecting prophet (SAWWS) or Ali (A) to grant them their wish, bypassing Allah (SWT) --- How can they claim to know what's there in the hearts of these people?

He is a liar who says he can read the hearts of others.
And He who accuses others of fisk without proof, is a Zalim and mischief monger.

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE - referring to any group of muslimeen as grave worshippers without knowledge of their belief and their intention is wrong and a big fasaat.

Because that's exactly what you guys do. You guys make sajdas on the graves of your Imams and chant Duas full of Shirk e.g Naad-e-Ali.

If that's not shirk than I don't know what is.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

No accusation to you -- Its a general speech -- those who claim they know what in the hearts of others and come out accusing others are liars - zalimeen.

----------------------------

Although this thread is about Tawasul --- And I'd prefer to discuss tawasul only - this side issue has cropped up. Its natural considering the circumstance and the past hostilities between the two factions.

Lets stick to HARD LOGIC.

Every action depends on Intention .

A person prays, with intention to worship Allah ----OR ---- With intention, to show others that he is pious.
A person gives sadka, with intention to please Allah ---- OR ---- with intention, to show others that he is generous.

The reward or punishment depends on the intention - not on the act. ---- <RIGHT>

So when a person knows very well that Allah (SWT) controls all affair - and he goes to grave of Prophet (SAWWS), and says "Ya Rasool-il-lah Madad - a3na maglub"
or he goes to the grave of Ali-ibn abi talib and say, "Ya Ali madad - a3na maghlub".

LOGIC dictated that he is saying O' Rusool-il-lah help me, intercede for me before Allah.

Mostly, these people who go to Prophet (SAWWS) consider themselves as sinners and they believe that Allah will not accept their pleas. BUT, if they go through Prophet (SAW) there is a better chances of getting their pleas heard.

How can any kadhi, sheik, mufti, mullah, hafiz ul qur'an, or what ever big titles they hold, come out and tell us that they know what is in the hearts of these people?

How can they say, that these people are expecting prophet (SAWWS) or Ali (A) to grant them their wish, bypassing Allah (SWT) --- How can they claim to know what's there in the hearts of these people?

He is a liar who says he can read the hearts of others.
And He who accuses others of fisk without proof, is a Zalim and mischief monger.

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE - referring to any group of muslimeen as grave worshippers without knowledge of their belief and their intention is wrong and a big fasaat.


Finally --- Some sayied Told me this story - You will find it interesting

[Ttranslation from one language to another does not do justice – I hope you will see the beauty of this message]


The mufti, mullah, molvi who accuse others of crime without knowledge and understanding are no different that these namazis with filthy thoughts.

If you say : ‘O Ali, give us rain!’, then this is Sarih al-Kufr – an explicit statement of Kufr, which does not accommodate Majaz. Just like the word Talaq, is an explicit statement of divorce, and if one says it to his wife even in jest, his wife is divorced. He cannot claim: I only intended it allegorically, whereas my intention was not to divorce her. Similarly, when one makes a statement of clear-cut apostasy, such as: O Ali, give us rain, then he becomes an apostate, and his claim that he intended something else would be of no use to him.

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

If you say : ‘O Ali, give us rain!’, then this is Sarih al-Kufr – an explicit statement of Kufr, which does not accommodate Majaz. Just like the word Talaq, is an explicit statement of divorce, and if one says it to his wife even in jest, his wife is divorced. He cannot claim: I only intended it allegorically, whereas my intention was not to divorce her. Similarly, when one makes a statement of clear-cut apostasy, such as: O Ali, give us rain, then he becomes an apostate, and his claim that he intended something else would be of no use to him.

I do not agree that a serious issue like dissolving marriage should be treated so lightly that it balances on the utterance of talaq 3-times.This is a lengthy discussion which we cannot afford to discuss here - else we will side track from the subject under discussion.

------------

The way you worded the sentence -- "O' Ali give us rain" certainly appear horrible and blasphemous. --- Even Shia Alim will not condone this.

But Ya Ali madad or Ya rusul-il-lah madad Simply means O' Ali help Or O' Rasool-il-lah help.

As long as the two elements of kufr, are present in the intention,

1) Considering the person in the grave to be a deity
2) Belief that person can give regardless of the will of Allah.

I cannot accept that this is kufr --- I cannot accept that which defies logic.

So I can only move to request from you to produce proof --- from Qur’an and or Authentic Hadith supported by Qur’anic verses.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

The way you worded the sentence -- "O' Ali give us rain" certainly appear horrible and blasphemous. --- Even Shia Alim will not condone this.
.

Really??? Cite your proof.

In fact, you Shias always say things like that: "O Ali, give me strength". Even you Shias ask Ali [ra] directly for things that you want.

And why should asking Ali (ra) for rain be a problem for you. Is it not you who brings up the tawassul about the people asking the Prophet [s] and Ibn Abbas [ra] to make dua for rain...and you said that it's not a big deal how you word it, but what you mean by it...so why do you say this contradiction? According to your logic then there should be no problem in saying "Ya Ali grant us rain." What's the difference between that and saying "Ya Ali, grant us strength" or "Ya Ali, grant us protection" or "Ya Ali, remove our hardship"?

Is it not you who says YA ALI MUSHKIL KUSHA? Even though Allah [swt] says that only HE can remove hardships from people!