[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

What's your source for that? I'm pretty sure every Deobandi aalim learns about kafaah from Qudoori/Hidaya.

I don't agree with it, though. It directly contradicts the Prophet (SAW)'s own words in his very last sermon. GF Haddad's explanation makes the most sense by far.

Seee my amended reply the book is in there.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Kafaah is well established in fiqh and in terms of hadeeths regarding the "superiority" of the Arabs, its established by particular hadeeth as well as certain rational proofs.

InshaAllah, lets stop applying Eurocentric Enlightenment era concepts of equality and applying them to the deen of Islam.

And the attacks on the Hanafi and Shafi'i madhab are uncalled for. Reliance of the Traveller is a very well established text and the concept of kafaah isn't limited to just the Shafi'i madhab.

Not really.

If you want to accept it the racial superiority of Arabs then thats up to you.

The Hanafi Deobandi school in particular is purging itself of certain Arab nationalist and other racist dogma's that have crept into Islam.

If Shafi's believe that an Industani of equal Taqwa to an Arab is less in the eyes of Allah swt because of his race then thats really a Shafi belief and you're welcome to it.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

All the ass kissing muslims do when it comes to arabs makes me laugh

Every race thinks it is gods gift to mankind, nothing new or special.

We are all made the same way, the amount of melatonin in ones skin does not make anyone better or more special than the other.

melanin

ws

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

melanin

ws

my friends taking melatonin to sleep, a freudian slip.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Not really.

If you want to accept it the racial superiority of Arabs then thats up to you.

The Hanafi Deobandi school in particular is purging itself of certain Arab nationalist and other racist dogma's that have crept into Islam.

If Shafi's believe that an Industani of equal Taqwa to an Arab is less in the eyes of Allah swt because of his race then thats really a Shafi belief and you're welcome to it.

Its not about racial superiority, its about noble lineage.

Firstly, the Hanafi madhab pre-existed the Deobandi manhaj by almost a thousand years. The concept of kafah isn't a by-product of 19th century Arab nationalism.

Secondly, your argument is moot as Deobandis DO recognize kafah.

Thirdly, stop being disrespectful to the Shafi'i madhab. The majority of the scholars of hadeeth came from that madhab.

Fourthly, its not about whose equal in the eyes of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), its about issues pertaining to marriage and governance.

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Its not about racial superiority, its about noble lineage.
.

Do you believe in the nobility of the English, French and Spanish monarchies as well? That they were selected by God to rule their respective countries?

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Firstly, the Hanafi madhab pre-existed the Deobandi manhaj by almost a thousand years.
.

So that makes them better than everyone else?

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The concept of kafah isn't a by-product of 19th century Arab nationalism.
.

Doesnt matter where it came from.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Secondly, your argument is moot as Deobandis DO recognize kafah.
.

people accept alot of ridiculous things as facts, doesnt make it true.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Thirdly, stop being disrespectful to the Shafi'i madhab. The majority of the scholars of hadeeth came from that madhab.
Fourthly, its not about whose equal in the eyes of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), its about issues pertaining to marriage and governance.

If the madhab advocates racism and superiority, then I would have a problem with it too.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

Do you believe in the nobility of the English, French and Spanish monarchies as well? That they were selected by God to rule their respective countries?

So that makes them better than everyone else?

Doesnt matter where it came from.

people accept alot of ridiculous things as facts, doesnt make it true.

If the madhab advocates racism and superiority, then I would have a problem with it too.

Where your ideas come from are completely relevant. If the origins of a concept are Eurocentric and man-made, then they don't stand muster against the volition of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), no matter how attractive they sound.

The basis of our jurisprudence is from Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). If there are hadeeth that mention the superiority of the Arabs and the mujtahids of our Ummah have incorporated these evidences into their fatwas, then it is a part of our deen. I would also be cautious of mocking hadeeth as their ultimate origin is from Allah (subhana wa ta'ala).This principle which exists is limited to two specific areas, as I stated, and that being marriage and governance and it isn't an exclusive factor, but one of many. Before anyone makes the childish argument that the only reason this opinion exists is because the fuqaha were Arab, keep in mind that the majority of the 'Ulema in history have been non-Arabs.

The Hanafi madhab is dominant in a lot of non-Arab regions. However, both Ottoman and Deobandi/Barelwi 'Ulema still recognize the principle of Kafah.

And again, its about lineage, not about race.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

Do you believe in the nobility of the English, French and Spanish monarchies as well? That they were selected by God to rule their respective countries?

I had the same thought. Folks, watch out for genetically engineered pigs taking to the skies.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Its not about racial superiority, its about noble lineage.

Firstly, the Hanafi madhab pre-existed the Deobandi manhaj by almost a thousand years. The concept of kafah isn't a by-product of 19th century Arab nationalism.

Secondly, your argument is moot as Deobandis DO recognize kafah.

Thirdly, stop being disrespectful to the Shafi'i madhab. The majority of the scholars of hadeeth came from that madhab.

Fourthly, its not about whose equal in the eyes of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), its about issues pertaining to marriage and governance.

I'll reply using the same numbering as follows:

1. Who referred to the 19th Century ? There was Arab nationalism prior to that. It was certainly an easy step from 'Mulkiyyah' and Arab 'princes' to racism.

2. Moot meets debatable it doesn't mean incorrect. I've stated that Deobandi ulema and here I've provided you with evidence are beginning to reject the concept of Kafah as being intrinsically unislamic.

3. I respect those who respect me. If somebody claims that he is superior to me on the basis of race then I have no respect for him whatsoever because thats exactly what Iblis claimed.

4. Issues about governance and marriage are from Allah swt or do you claim that they are not derived from Shariah ?

[Variable]

I've come across mentions of 'keeping it in the tribe' so to speak, but I didn't realize it was a named concept.

In any case, from the little bit I read on that one website, it has nothing to do with 'nobility' or superiority of Arabs or anyone else. It just said "be compatible with the one you marry - this tends to be someone within your own social 'category' so to speak"

Or is there more to it? It also said that marrying outside your group isn't forbidden, but all of the paragraph above it seemed to strongly encourage it. So is marrying someone who's not in your ethnicity, social group, tribe considered Makruh?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Seee my amended reply the book is in there.



Not really.

If you want to accept it the racial superiority of Arabs then thats up to you.

The Hanafi Deobandi school in particular is purging itself of certain Arab nationalist and other racist dogma's that have crept into Islam.

If Shafi's believe that an Industani of equal Taqwa to an Arab is less in the eyes of Allah swt because of his race then thats really a Shafi belief and you're welcome to it.

Why are you reffering to the Shafi'i school as a seperate entity?
Other than reading Deobandi literature on the subject have you read other opinions? Have you read where they got their daleel and how its presented?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Revert

Why are you reffering to the Shafi'i school as a seperate entity?
Other than reading Deobandi literature on the subject have you read other opinions? Have you read where they got their daleel and how its presented?

Because I've read ''The Reliance...' when it was passed to me by an Arab Shafi friend during Uni days.

I was pretty appalled when I read it.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Because I've read ''The Reliance...' when it was passed to me by an Arab Shafi friend during Uni days.

I was pretty appalled when I read it.

Why were you appalled? I really don't get why you would say that?

Who translated it?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Revert

Why were you appalled? I really don't get why you would say that?

Who translated it?

Nuh Keller.

I suggest you read it.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

I'll reply using the same numbering as follows:

1. Who referred to the 19th Century ? There was Arab nationalism prior to that. It was certainly an easy step from 'Mulkiyyah' and Arab 'princes' to racism.

Arab nationalism is different from the concept of ethnocentrism. Arab nationalism, a movement that defined the territorial boundaries of a state to be based on the Arab race is a post-Enlightenment historical movement. The previous Arab-centric phenomenon didn't want to exclude non-Arabs from the state, but wanted to procure particular benefits to Arabs.

Regardless, the fuqaha of the Ottoman and Mughal empires both supported the concept of kafah and neither of them was Arab.

2. Moot meets debatable it doesn't mean incorrect. I've stated that Deobandi ulema and here I've provided you with evidence are beginning to reject the concept of Kafah as being intrinsically unislamic.

Dude, I have no idea where you studied fiqh, but Deobandi 'Ulema are among the forefront of defending the concept of Kafah.

The senior Deobandi 'Ulema all defend kafah.

3. I respect those who respect me. If somebody claims that he is superior to me on the basis of race then I have no respect for him whatsoever because thats exactly what Iblis claimed.

Your pe