[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Bro, you have no idea what you're talking about.

For the purpose of kafa'ah, being an Arab isn't defined by race, but by lineage. They have to prove that they returned to one of the original tribes in order to be considered Arab.

So to cite your example, if a person who is "Arab" but is adopted by another family and has no knowledge of his lineage, he is not an Arab for the purpose of kafa'ah. Even if he is fully "Arab" in the sense that he grew up speaking Arabic, if he can't document his lineage back to the original tribes, then he's not an 'Arab' for the purpose of kafa'ah.

I've been stating it since the beginning. It has nothing to do with race, but lineage.

So what do you say if he's adopted AND knows his lineage.

Do you still says Kafa'at applies.


Revert there's no need to get emotional with me if you disagree with your own scholars about Kafa'at. If you believe that Kafa'at is wrong then why attack me for believing the same ?

[Jamroll]

I just don't get this argument.

If, as per Abdul Karim, this concept is fundamental to our din (which I'm not as yet convinced of), then why is it so complicated to get our heads round? On the fundamentals, Islam is simple. The fundamental concepts of Islam are easy to get around your head. If this is so complicated, how is it a fundamental of our din?

The people who are supporting the "Arabs are superior in nobility and lineage" argument, are either not explaining the concept very well, or the rest of us are just not getting it. I'd like to ask some questions:

All this stuff about lineage back to the Prophet (saw) or the original tribes of the Prophet's time being more noble, what has that got to do with anything? Why would it be more noble to belong to an Arab tribe. Each nation has their own nobility. In the Indian subcontinent, we have our castes and all that stuff. What makes the most noble Indian (who knows his lineage back to the 7th century) less noble than the most noble Arab? What makes the most noble African less noble than the most noble Arab?

The arguments for the Quraish being the most noble, and therefore most suitable for the leadership. Is that still relevant? Was that statement by the Prophet (saw) to hold for all time, or was it specific to the circumstances that existed at the time?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by ShahRukh

And MossadConspiracy has yet to provide proof to back up his arguments.

which arguments are you talking about

[Variable]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

This in and of itself carries a certain degree of nobility within it, but it only becomes relevant in the context of marriage (in the Hanafi and Shafi'i madhab) when a wali disapproves of a marriage or in the area of governance.

Here the discussion has been about marriage - and what I've got from this is, if an Arab girl wants to marry a guy from outside of her tribe, she needs a note from her dad. That's pretty much it. I would say that's an example of Arab tribalism, but it's not racism necessarily (although it seems logical it'd extend beyond Arabs to non-Arabs, I don't really know how it works from there)

But what issues are including involving 'governance'?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I just don't get this argument.

If, as per Abdul Karim, this concept is fundamental to our din (which I'm not as yet convinced of), then why is it so complicated to get our heads round? On the fundamentals, Islam is simple. The fundamental concepts of Islam are easy to get around your head. If this is so complicated, how is it a fundamental of our din?

The people who are supporting the "Arabs are superior in nobility and lineage" argument, are either not explaining the concept very well, or the rest of us are just not getting it. I'd like to ask some questions:

All this stuff about lineage back to the Prophet (saw) or the original tribes of the Prophet's time being more noble, what has that got to do with anything? Why would it be more noble to belong to an Arab tribe. Each nation has their own nobility. In the Indian subcontinent, we have our castes and all that stuff. What makes the most noble Indian (who knows his lineage back to the 7th century) less noble than the most noble Arab? What makes the most noble African less noble than the most noble Arab?

The arguments for the Quraish being the most noble, and therefore most suitable for the leadership. Is that still relevant? Was that statement by the Prophet (saw) to hold for all time, or was it specific to the circumstances that existed at the time?

I think Jamroll is making a valid point

[Abdul_Karim]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I just don't get this argument.

If, as per Abdul Karim, this concept is fundamental to our din (which I'm not as yet convinced of), then why is it so complicated to get our heads round? On the fundamentals, Islam is simple. The fundamental concepts of Islam are easy to get around your head. If this is so complicated, how is it a fundamental of our din?

The people who are supporting the "Arabs are superior in nobility and lineage" argument, are either not explaining the concept very well, or the rest of us are just not getting it. I'd like to ask some questions:

All this stuff about lineage back to the Prophet (saw) or the original tribes of the Prophet's time being more noble, what has that got to do with anything? Why would it be more noble to belong to an Arab tribe. Each nation has their own nobility. In the Indian subcontinent, we have our castes and all that stuff. What makes the most noble Indian (who knows his lineage back to the 7th century) less noble than the most noble Arab? What makes the most noble African less noble than the most noble Arab?

The arguments for the Quraish being the most noble, and therefore most suitable for the leadership. Is that still relevant? Was that statement by the Prophet (saw) to hold for all time, or was it specific to the circumstances that existed at the time?

Its only complicated because you grew up in a modern society with almost no concept of what nobility means. The Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) is the most noble of creation, after him is the Hashimites, then the rest of the Quraish, then the rest of the Arabs, then the Ajam. There are Ajam (such as Salman al-Farsi) who are better than millions of Arabs, but nobility in lineage is a different issue. Nobility in lineage is not about how pious you are, or how much Allah loves you. It is something you inheirit from your parents, like an heirloom that passes from generation to generation. It has no bearing on one's standing with Allah.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The Shari'ah is an entire corpus of law. The term 'Arab' has different uses in different sciences. In linguistics, an Arab isn't defined racially either, its defined by the ability to speak foos-ha.

In kafa'ah, an Arab is defined by his ability to show descent from one of the Arab tribes in the time of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam).

The Arabs of old went to meticulous lengths to preserve their lineage and were descendants of Ismail (alayhi salam) and makes them in the family of a lot of other prophets.

This in and of itself carries a certain degree of nobility within it, but it only becomes relevant in the context of marriage (in the Hanafi and Shafi'i madhab) when a wali disapproves of a marriage or in the area of governance.

going along with jinnz a bit, hes right in that the superiority has nothing to do with race or ethnicity etc, its all about lineage. if some crappy arab guy comes from a noble lineage, its his lineage that you have to respect, not the type of crappy person he is. you can apply it to all types of ppl too i guess but thats the jist of it, becuase the family line has a noble name, you respect that.

also , arabs actually span way before the prophets time. i posted a long post in the humour thread about the lineage of arabs today (because as usual, threads get side tracked )

Originally Posted by Variable

Here the discussion has been about marriage - and what I've got from this is, if an Arab girl wants to marry a guy from outside of her tribe, she needs a note from her dad. That's pretty much it. I would say that's an example of Arab tribalism, but it's not racism necessarily (although it seems logical it'd extend beyond Arabs to non-Arabs, I don't really know how it works from there)

But what issues are including involving 'governance'?

this is for any muslim girl whether marrying in or outside the tribe

[Variable]

Originally Posted by nooni

this is for any muslim girl whether marrying in or outside the tribe

Then what does this have to do with anything? Why is it even a factor, albeit a small one?

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim

Its only complicated because you grew up in a modern society with almost no concept of what nobility means. The Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) is the most noble of creation, after him is the Hashimites, then the rest of the Quraish, then the rest of the Arabs, then the Ajam. There are Ajam (such as Salman al-Farsi) who are better than millions of Arabs, but nobility in lineage is a different issue. Nobility in lineage is not about how pious you are, or how much Allah loves you. It is something you inheirit from your parents, like an heirloom that passes from generation to generation. It has no bearing on one's standing with Allah.

But, bro, we have that same concept in many parts of the world. In the Indian subcontinent we have the Hindu caste system, and even among the Muslims there is the braaberi system, where people who are of a noble lineage only marry their girls to people of a similar standing. But it's not a hard and fast rule. It's not set in stone. People can marry from wherever, as long as the families are happy with each other.

From what you've said, I don't see how this Arab lineage thing is relevant in anything other than in considerations of who to marry your children to. If that's the case, then it's an Arab thing, it's a cultural thing, based on who they want to marry their children to. it's got little to do with the rest of us, and I don't see how it affects our din in any way, or how it's even a religious consideration.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by Variable

Then what does this have to do with anything? Why is it even a factor, albeit a small one?

i guess its the same way that parents want their kids to marry only a doctor, engineer, etc.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by nooni

i guess its the same way that parents want their kids to marry only a doctor, engineer, etc.

Then we're coming back to ancestral status again...


A question for Jinzzaman and others (at the risk of seeming like a broken record) - what was the intended/real-world effect of articulating the difference in lineage and how it affects marriage?

Why even bother when the girl has to have permission anyway, and it has no restrictive value on the parents' - or anyone's decision?


What is this whole idea based on? Are there actual ahadeeth that describe anything like this? When was this idea first discussed in an Islamically authoritive text?

[Good_ol_JR]

[quote=Abdul_Karim;127087]




An Arab means a descendant of Qahtan or Adnan.



QUOTE]

I take that refers to a specific tribe or group of people and it means that any random Middle Easterner whether they're from North Africa or the Gulf can go running their mouth about their lineage. I think if you made that clear early on there would not be so much hostilty about "racism" on this thread.

But out of curiosity how would you expect someone to actually prove that they're actually descended from Qahtan or Adnan, do you just take their word for it? Many Desis claim that they're descendents of Arabs who invaded the subcontinent, can't they claim the same? Couldn't I claim that my Spanish ancestors intermingled with Andalusian Arabs. I mean you people only count ancestry from the father's side so it wouldnt be too difficult

Btw can you answer:

1. What exactly is the Shafi ruling on a father marrying off his daughter to anyone without her consent, I've heard it before but wasn't sure it was legit. Doesn't that go against the Quran and Sunnah? Where does it derive from?

2. How did the non-Arabs amongst the Sahabah like Bilal RA and Salman al Farsi RA mangage to marry Arab women?

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

But, bro, we have that same concept in many parts of the world. In the Indian subcontinent we have the Hindu caste system, and even among the Muslims there is the braaberi system, where people who are of a noble lineage only marry their girls to people of a similar standing. But it's not a hard and fast rule. It's not set in stone. People can marry from wherever, as long as the families are happy with each other.

Lets not stoop to such low level as to comparing kafa'a with hindu caste system....which is based on economical and racial lines...where the upper caste often known as the "untouchables" ...

From what you've said, I don't see how this Arab lineage thing is relevant in anything other than in considerations of who to marry your children to. If that's the case, then it's an Arab thing, it's a cultural thing, based on who they want to marry their children to. it's got little to do with the rest of us, and I don't see how it affects our din in any way, or how it's even a religious consideration.

After the passing away of the Prophet SAW, Sahabas mutually decided that the next Caliph must be from the Quraysh. And they could not have possibly done this w/o considering teachings of the Prophet SAW.

The first four caliphs were from Quraysh and they were handpicked by the Prophet SAW as his best and most beloved companions.

Many marriages would take place within the Quraysh tribes simply due to noble lineage.

The Prophet SAW himself gave his daughter to Uthman RA who was from the Quraysh clan. Both Abu Bakr and Omar RA gave their daughters to the Prophet in marriage. And the Prophet SAW gave his daughter to Ali RA in marriage. So, you see the inter-marriages in the Quraysh tribe.

Also has it ever occured to you that the Prophet Saw was from the Hashemites and his four beloved rightly guided caliphs...all belonged to the same Quraysh clan? Why would Allah swt pick best of the creation and the best four rightly guided caliphs that are promised a place in heaven by the Prophet SAW from the Quraysh tribe?

When it comes to the fuqaha, what matters the most to them is a direct relation to the best creation of Allah that is the Prophet SAW. whether in the form of isnad or lineage. Some scholars pick isnad over lineage or vice-versa....based on evidence as they have differences, though. But...almost all the scholars agree with the concept of noble lineage and tremendously respect descendants of the Prophet SAW.

Whether one believes it or not, nobility was and IS a pretty big issue and will remain so till the end of the world.


Afterall, blood is thicker than water.

[Aryan_]

Arabs are the masters of camel riding and dessert/cave dwelling, but not much else.