[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Which direction is it going to come from ?

no, did your statement have something to do with iran and saudi arabia?

[bluey]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Sister, do they cite it as authentic or do they merely use it in their lectures/speeches?

Sometimes scholars will quote a hadeeth without knowing about its authenticity.

Even if we accept the hadeeth as being authentic, it does not at all prove their sectarian claims that it refers to the Taliban.

You know, during the Prophet's lifetime, they used to think that one man alive then was the dajjal. And each successive generation has always believed that these prophecies are imminent in their own generation.

A lot of people think that the world is about to end in our generation or children's generation, but this is mere speculation. Only Allah [swt] knows. It could be that the Muslims become a super-power again and dominate the West...and then the West comes back on top...and then the Muslims dominate again...and then the West dominates...it could happen seven or eight times or who knows how many times before the end of times comes.

Therefore, to claim that THIS particular group, i.e. the Taliban, are that army...well, that is just mere speculation and our religion is not based on mere speculation.

I really doubt that the Mahdi will come from within the ranks of a group (the Taliban) which is now allied with terrorists (Al-Qaeda).

Assalam Aalykum,

I never said I thought that he will come from the Taliban. Some people might do so, but as you said, that is speculation. However, that does not make the hadith false or diminish the fact that an army might arise from that area or the Mahdi might come from that area.

I can probably understand that the hadith could be tampered with to support the Abbasid cause, but are there not other ahadith that talk about the coming of an army/mahdi from that area? [Modern day Afghanistan/East]? Also, that hadith seems to be in the books of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal, Tirmidhi and Sunan Ibn Majah among others. And I've heard the likes of Ibn Kathir and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaani deem it to be authentic, or at the very least mildly weak.

That hadith has also been narrated by Nu'aym Ibn Hamaad, in his famous book of al-fitan. And he took it from Az-Zuhri, who was a specialised scholar of hadith.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong, just that there [Could be] are two sides to the story. [I'm not sure if that made sense, but still, heh]

And Allah subhanna wa ta'ala knows best.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Hanbali

Question

Who do you believe knows Islam better the Muslims of the Ummayad and Abbasid Khilaafa's down to the Uthmaniya Khilafa and the Sunni Muslims of today or the tribe of saud and their 'scholars' ?

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Hanbali

Question

Who do you believe knows Islam better the Muslims of the Ummayad and Abbasid Khilaafa's down to the Uthmaniya Khilafa and the Sunni Muslims of today or the tribe of saud and their 'scholars' ?

subhanAllah, may Allah SWT save you from your ignorance

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Hanbali

Question

Who do you believe knows Islam better the Muslims of the Ummayad and Abbasid Khilaafa's down to the Uthmaniya Khilafa and the Sunni Muslims of today or the tribe of saud and their 'scholars' ?

Brother, do you know that Shaykh Salman al-Oudah was jailed by the Saudi government due to his opposition to said government?

[Good_ol_JR]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Question: Are the hadîth about an army coming from Khorasan with black flags and entering Jerusalem authentic?

Answered by Sheikh Salman al-Oadah
The hadîth about the army with black banners coming out of Khorasan has two chains of transmission, but both are weak and cannot be authenticated. If a Muslim believes in this hadîth, he believes in something false. Anyone who cares about his religion and beliefshould avoid heading towards falsehood.

The hadîth is related on the authority of Thawbân that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If you see the black banners coming from the direction of Khurasân, then go to them, even if you have to crawl, because among them will be Allah’s Caliph the Mahdî.” [Related by al-Hâkim (8572) and Ahmad (22387)]

All the chains of transmission for this hadîth are weak and inauthentic, though some people have been overly lenient about it and declared it authentic by virtue of the many chains of transmission that it has.

Some people have used this hadîth to support their claim that the Mahdî is from the family of al-Abbâs and that the Mahdî is from of the Abbasid dynasty. There were Abbasid Caliphs who went by the name al-Mahdî.

The banners of the Abbasid State were black. It is not hard to see how this weak hadîth might have been fabricated or at least tampered with to support the Abbasid cause.

Islamtoday.Com - Army with black flags advancing from Khorasan

I'm not to go scholar-bashing but this guy gave one of the most simplified and stereotypical references to the Hadith. It is unanimously agreed by several other scholars that when there are several weak ahadith pertaining to the same thing they can be combined to make it a strong hadith. And this Hadith is one of them, because they're so many various hadith reporting this it has been raised to the level of a strong hadith.

And no I am by no means talking out of my ass here, Sh. Yasir Qadhi, a SALAFI scholar mind you goes into great detail about it in The Mahdi: Between Fact and Fiction lecture which can be downloaded from this thread. http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/re...sir-qadhi.html

I dont consider myself Salafi but fact of the matter is I will take the words of an American Salafi scholar who shares the majority opinion any day of the week over that of a Saudi scholar who is working for a puppet king and his colonial slave masters.

I wouldnt be surprised that the Saudis would wanna deny the hadith about the army from Khurusan, because it implies that the majority of Imam Mahdi's army will be non-Arabs something which has been explicitly stated in quite a few other hadith though I'm not sure as to their authenticity. This confirms that re-establishment of Khalifah and the protection of the Mahdi will be by the hands of majority of non-Arabs which other hadith attest too.

Alternatively the Muslims of the Abbassid era were aware and believed in the hadith of the black flags from Khurasan.

Which shall I support ? The Muslims of the past who followed the advice of the Ulema because they knew that the hadith was Sahih or a Saudi stooge...

Exactly the fact that the Abbasids even attempted this stunt is proof in itself that this Hadith was in existence and taken seriously during the time of the Sahabah. And Abbasids didn't even come from Khurusan nor was the Mahdi in Medina at the time so they basically ignored that part. This is also confirmed in Yasir Qadhi's lecture and by other scholars so I dunno what this Saudi Sheikh is referring too.

Of course the Saudis would find fault with these because if destroys their myth of Arab supremacy as well as their belief that every major movement in the history of Islam is only legit if it occurs in the Arabian Peninsula. It also exposes the fact that the first army sent to kill Imam Mahdi when he takes refuge in Medina, the one that will be swallowed up, will come from their progeny. As will the people who attempt to dig under the Kaaba to find the buried treasure but will fail and just end up fighting each other (I suspect this occurs when all the oil is gone and the spoiled children start to miss their extravagant wealth but thats just IMO)

These Hadiths basically prove the current evil and corruption of all of Saudi society to have been Prophesized as the 4th reign of tyranny Muhammad SAW warned us about prior to the re-establishment of Khalifah. This is why it amazes me to see Muslims attempt to defend the Saudis when our Nabi SAW condemned them 1400 years ago.

And everything mentioned here is in Yasir Qadhi's lecture who is Salafi himselft so I suggest you take the work of an Al-Maghrib scholar over that of one appointed by the colonial government of the joint US-Israeli colony of Saudi Arabia.

May Allah SWT forgive me if I said anything wrong

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by Good_ol_JR

And everything mentioned here is in Yasir Qadhi's lecture who is Salafi himselft so I suggest you take the work of an Al-Maghrib scholar over that of one appointed by the colonial government of the joint US-Israeli colony of Saudi Arabia.

You are a complete jaahil.

Yasir Qadhi (hafidhuallah) would never come to Shaykh Salman al-Oudah (hafidhuallah) except as a student of knowledge. Ask Yasir Qadhi himself who is superior in knowledge, himself or Shaykh Salman al-Oudah! lol

You Jaahil, Yassir Qadhi is a student of knowledge, whereas Shaykh Salman al-Oudah is a Shaykh. Yassir Qadhi himself would acknowledge this.

And you call Salman al-Oudah as "appointed by the colonial government of the joint US-Israel colony of Saudi Arabia"....I already told you, you complete jaahil, that Salman al-Oudah was ARRESTED by the Saudi government for his opposition to the Saudi government! Yet you--being the complete jaahil you are--are accusing him of being a puppet scholar set up by the Saudi govt!

May Allah SWT forgive me if I said anything wrong

Indeed. May Allah [swt] forgive you for being a jaahil who speaks against scholars without knowledge.

-----------

I just want people to stop being stupid in this thread. To claim that Shaykh Salman al-Oudah (hafidhuallah) weakened a hadeeth simply because he disagreed with the meaning of it...that is a serious charge.

Don't you jaahils realize that Shaykh Salman al-Oudah weakened it because of its isnad?!

Maybe Salman al-Oudah made a mistake in that, maybe not. Feel free to discuss the isnad.

But to accuse the Shaykh of weakening it just based on its content and implications...well, you guys are seriously out of line.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Brother, do you know that Shaykh Salman al-Oudah was jailed by the Saudi government due to his opposition to said government?

Bin Baaz occasionally opposed the tribe of saud as well as did albani. Do you know anything about how politics works ?

Its possible to mislead someone, to 'encourage' them to take a certain view, to ask them to do something so far-fetched that they rebel. Its happened throughout history....Mao v Deng Xiao-Ping or Zhou-Enlai etc

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

subhanAllah, may Allah SWT save you from your ignorance

Jazakalla and may he save the Ahl e Sunna from the fitnah of the Saud.

Recently I came across a text by a Saudi scholar attacking Imam Abu Maturidi ra as a 'heretic'. I'm wondering if thats now the official position of your 'scholars'.

On that basis the majority of Muslims for the last 1,000 years have been heretics because their aqeedah was 'heretical'

Originally Posted by Hanbali

You are a complete jaahil.


Indeed. May Allah [swt] forgive you for being a jaahil who speaks against scholars without knowledge.

Thats an insult. I think you need to calm down.

I agree may Allah swt help those Jahils who are now condemning Imam Maturidi ra as a heretic.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Recently I came across a text by a Saudi scholar attacking Imam Abu Maturidi ra as a 'heretic'. I'm wondering if thats now the official position of your 'scholars'.

On that basis the majority of Muslims for the last 1,000 years have been heretics because their aqeedah was 'heretical'

The "majority" of Muslims are not maturidi. And yes, Maturidis are considered heretical in aqeedah by us.

It should be known that it is a principle of your own Ashari and Maturidi scholars that a layperson cannot by definition be an Ashari or Maturidi, since they are barred from talking about kalam to begin with.

[AbuAlAbbas]

When I told you to please clarify, I was not talking about the hadith, but what you meant by it. I understood from your statement, that you wanted iran to attack saudi arabia.

Anyways, just to clarify the major scholars of salafiyyah have warned people about salman alawda.

[Rambo]

I still dont understand why Hanabali loves the saudi government and the Sauds, i mean any sane person with commen sense can figure out how wrong these people are. I am assuming you haven't lived in saudi arabia maybe thats why you have no idea about them.

also your insults to other people just prove you are the one who is jahil because patience is a huge part of islam. your not following your basics yet u act like a scholar.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by Rambo

I still dont understand why Hanabali loves the saudi government and the Sauds,

I already told you that I am moderate in my position towards the Saudi government. I do not defend it no matter what, nor do I do takfeer. I do not deny the good they have done, nor do I defend them when they are in the wrong.

[bluey]

People are going a bit over-board. Calling the Ulema, any Scholar for that matter 'Saudi Stooges' and so on without knowing properly is not becoming of a Muslim. I'd like to add that the Scholars are not infallible, they make mistakes, just like we do. However, that does not mean we resort to being disrespectful and calling them names because we don't agree with them.

Secondly, regarding Shaykh Salman Al Oadahs statement, there could be a possibility that the chain of narration could be weak or tampered with. He wouldn't make such a big statement without doing his own research. Allahu aalam. However, there are other points to be looked at too concerning this [Like mentioned above]. When it comes to Usul Al-Hadith, and the rulings concerning ahadith, things aren't black and white. Wa Allahu aalam.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

The "majority" of Muslims are not maturidi. And yes, Maturidis are considered heretical in aqeedah by us.

It should be known that it is a principle of your own Ashari and Maturidi scholars that a layperson cannot by definition be an Ashari or Maturidi, since they are barred from talking about kalam to begin with.

The majority of Muslims accept that the positions of BOTH Imam Asharii ra and Imam Maturidi ra are correct in aqeedah.

I'm quoting you just so for the record in future Muslims know how far you've departed from Ahl e Sunna Wal Jamaa