[shadha]

AsSalamu' Alaykum,

I was scrolling over the article and this caught my eye:

"Those who attack Muhammed (pbuh) for marrying Aisha, a child, never mention that Muhammed’s traditions were not recorded till 200 years after his death."

200 years?? Is this an exaggeration or a common undisputed fact? If this is fact, how then is it rationalized? I know often times many Muslims harp on the Christians for the Bible being written many upon many years after the death of 'Isa. So rolling with that, wouldn't that be hypocritical since many Muslims deem Hadith legally as important as the Qur'an?

If it wasn't 200 years, then what? I don't recall ever reading that Hadiths were complied on a day to day basis, but then again, I don't have the best of memory. So if anyone can clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


shadha-

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by shadha

AsSalamu' Alaykum,

I was scrolling over the article and this caught my eye:

"Those who attack Muhammed (pbuh) for marrying Aisha, a child, never mention that Muhammed’s traditions were not recorded till 200 years after his death."

200 years?? Is this an exaggeration or a common undisputed fact? If this is fact, how then is it rationalized? I know often times many Muslims harp on the Christians for the Bible being written many upon many years after the death of 'Isa. So rolling with that, wouldn't that be hypocritical since many Muslims deem Hadith legally as important as the Qur'an?

If it wasn't 200 years, then what? I don't recall ever reading that Hadiths were complied on a day to day basis, but then again, I don't have the best of memory. So if anyone can clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


shadha-

A chronology may be helpful

[jinnzaman]

No, thats false.

Hadeeth were recorded in the time of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) and the Salafus Saleh.

There's a bunch of books on this issue, but the Musnad of Hammam was compiled and he was a student of Abu Hurayrah (radhi allahu anhu).

[Rambo]

yes well Bukhari lived some 200-300 years after the death, so yeah they were compiled in a book much after, however they existed during the time of the prophet(s).

[Salika]

The Fallacies of Anti Hadith Arguments ...*

although this is about refuting anti-hadith arguments, about midway it discusses the alleged lack of recording hadiths.

It's an undisputed fact that that the command to not record hadith was later abrogated and the sahaba were allowed to write hadith and they did, including Abu Hurayra and Abu Bakr.

[Hanbali]

As-Salam Alaykum dear sister,

You have brought up two issues:

1) The marriage of Prophet Muhammad [s] to Aisha [ra]. The best article I've seen on this topic is available can be accessed by emailing The Religion of Islam - Home Page ...just email them and ask them "why did Prophet Muhammad [s] marry Aisha [ra] when she was such a young age?" You can contact them here, and they'll email you the article in one day:

The Religion of Islam - Contact Us

Or I can email it to you myself. PM me if you want me to do that. It will insha-Allah end all your doubts on the matter.

2) The second issue is the matter of when hadeeth were written. This is actually a lie propagated by the internet cult known as the "Quraniyyoon". It is completely false to say that the hadeeth were only written down 200 years after the Prophet's death. Rather, the hadeeth were written down much sooner than that.

The reason that the ICHRT (internet cult of hadeeth rejector teenagers) reached this erroneous conclusion was that they looked at each famous compilation we use today, such as Bukhari, Muslim, etc, and they realized "wow, these are all written way after the Prophet [s] died"....and then--because they lack in any real knowledge or formal education--they began making websites and preaching their lies as if these were based on fact...

What these teenagers did not realize was that there were other compilations that were made RIGHT after the Prophet's death -- not 200 years afterwards. It's just that these compilations are no longer as popular as Bukhari, Muslim, etc...

The reason these early compilations are not as popular is that the early compilations were scattered...furthermore, the later compilations by Bukhari/Muslim were heavily authenticated by the scholars.

You can read an in-depth refutation here:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/re...re_unreliable_

[Revert]

Originally Posted by shadha

AsSalamu' Alaykum,

I was scrolling over the article and this caught my eye:

"Those who attack Muhammed (pbuh) for marrying Aisha, a child, never mention that Muhammed’s traditions were not recorded till 200 years after his death."

200 years?? Is this an exaggeration or a common undisputed fact? If this is fact, how then is it rationalized? I know often times many Muslims harp on the Christians for the Bible being written many upon many years after the death of 'Isa. So rolling with that, wouldn't that be hypocritical since many Muslims deem Hadith legally as important as the Qur'an?

If it wasn't 200 years, then what? I don't recall ever reading that Hadiths were complied on a day to day basis, but then again, I don't have the best of memory. So if anyone can clear this up for me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


shadha-

Many don't understand the difference between compiling and creating. The Sahih compilations like Bukhari and Muslim were compiled many years (approx 200) after the Prophet(saws) death. Hadiths were orally transmitted as was the Qur'an, they were also written down during the prophets life. The Qur'an was compiled after the Prophets(saws) death too.

If you do a search theres plenty of books and articles that go into detail on this issue.

[ameen]

Originally Posted by shadha

200 years?? Is this an exaggeration or a common undisputed fact? If this is fact, how then is it rationalized?

salam,

All the Hadith that exist in the six books which Sunnis hold in great esteem, which they call the 'six authentic collections' ('Sahih Sittah'), were written down over 200 years after the Prophet's death. This is not at all an exaggeration and it clearly must be an undisputed fact because those who wrote down these books of Hadith lived this many years after the Prophet passed away. A quick glance at the birthdays and deathdays of these Hadith-writers AFTER HIJRAH (AH) confirms this indisputable fact:

BUKHARI - died in year 260 AH

MUSLIM - died in year 261 AH

THIRMIDHI - died in year 279 AH

ABU DAWUD - died in year 275 AH

IBN-MAJAH - died in year 273 AH

NASA'I - died in year 303 AH

you will find that Sunnis try to justify this by pretending that all the Hadith were perfectly, word-for-word, and continually inscribed in the minds of certain individuals with super memory powers, who somehow magically passed on the exact words of the Prophet onto these late Hadith-writers.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

All the Hadith that exist in the six books which Sunnis hold in great esteem, which they call the 'six authentic collections' ('Sahih Sittah'), were written down over 200 years after the Prophet's death. This is not at all an exaggeration and it clearly must be an undisputed fact because those who wrote down these books of Hadith lived this many years after the Prophet passed away. A quick glance at the birthdays and deathdays of these Hadith-writers after Hijrah confirms this indisputable fact:

BUKHARI - died in year 260 AH

MUSLIM - died in year 261 AH

THIRMIDHI - died in year 279 AH

ABU DAWUD - died in year 275 AH

IBN-MAJAH - died in year 273 AH

NASA'I - died in year 303 AH

you will find that Sunnis try to justify this by pretending that all the Hadith were perfectly, word-for-word, and continually inscribed in the minds of certain individuals with super memory powers, who somehow magically passed on the exact words of the Prophet onto these Hadith-writers.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

[ameen]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

The reason these early compilations are not as popular is that the early compilations were scattered...furthermore, the later compilations by Bukhari/Muslim were heavily authenticated by the scholars.

Here we see how a typical Sunni starts stuttering when it comes to explaining their attachment to Hadith. Tell us again, why were the 'early Hadith' only 'scattered' and unpopular, and not as accepted as the 'Sahih Sittah' invented centuries later? why did you have to wait centuries for someone to sieve out Hadith into several holy books which you accept?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

All the Hadith that exist in the six books which Sunnis hold in great esteem, which they call the 'six authentic collections' ('Sahih Sittah'), were written down over 200 years after the Prophet's death. This is not at all an exaggeration and it clearly must be an undisputed fact because those who wrote down these books of Hadith lived this many years after the Prophet passed away. A quick glance at the birthdays and deathdays of these Hadith-writers AFTER HIJRAH (AH) confirms this indisputable fact:

BUKHARI - died in year 260 AH

MUSLIM - died in year 261 AH

THIRMIDHI - died in year 279 AH

ABU DAWUD - died in year 275 AH

IBN-MAJAH - died in year 273 AH

NASA'I - died in year 303 AH

you will find that Sunnis try to justify this by pretending that all the Hadith were perfectly, word-for-word, and continually inscribed in the minds of certain individuals with super memory powers, who somehow magically passed on the exact words of the Prophet onto these late Hadith-writers.

When did Imam Hasan al Basri and Malik ra die ? Or Imam Abu Hanifa ra...

We need an accurate chronology

[Revert]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

When did Imam Hasan al Basri and Malik ra die ? Or Imam Abu Hanifa ra...

We need an accurate chronology

Its funny beacuse the founders of the schools of fiqh predate the Sahih compilations or were around during their compilation.


Abū Ḥanīfah, (Arabic: أبو حنيفة‎‎) (699 — 767 CE / 80 — 148 AH)

Malik ibn Anas ibn Malik ibn 'Amr al-Asbahi (Arabic مالك بن أنس) (c. 715 - 796) (93 AH - 179 AH )

Al-Shafi'i, Arabic jurist (150 AH/767 AD - 204 AH/820 AD).

Ahmed ibn Hanbal (Arabic: ‏‎‎‎‎‎‎‎‎أحمد بن حنبل‏‎‎‎‏‎‎‎ ‎‎‎‎‎‎‎ Ahmad bin Hanbal ) (780 - 855 CE, 164 - 241 AH)

If Hadiths were so unpopular then why were jurists avid users of them? Just curious is all. (aimed at Ameen and such)

[Kadhim]

Yeah, even speaking as a Shia, I have to say that these arguments against the whole system of hadith are pretty ignorant. A reasonable argument can be raised that some number of isolated fabricated or mistaken narrations probably slipped through the net, or that more effort needs to be done today look beyond the surface details of the traditions to the principles involved to understand what the traditions have to say about today's world beyond some literalist effort to simply copy exactly the prophets actions in all ways.

However to say that the whole corpus is expendable is absurd. The notion spread by the anti-hadith folks, that there was nothing done about hadith for 200 years, and then people decided to study and write them down, is absurd, and provably wrong. As someone else mentioned, these major collections are simply the most famous. There are documented paper trails of circles of study and collection of hadith going from the time of Muhammad's death up to the time of compilation of the major collections. There is no meaningful gap in the process. Those who say there are either are lying, or have extremely superficial knowledge of the history of hadith sciences.

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

All the Hadith that exist in the six books which Sunnis hold in great esteem, which they call the 'six authentic collections' ('Sahih Sittah'), were written down over 200 years after the Prophet's death.

Thank you very much, Captain Obvious. I've already explained to you that the hadeeths were written down in other books.

See below.

Originally Posted by ameen

Here we see how a typical Sunni starts stuttering when it comes to explaining their attachment to Hadith. Tell us again, why were the 'early Hadith' only 'scattered' and unpopular, and not as accepted as the 'Sahih Sittah' invented centuries later? why did you have to wait centuries for someone to sieve out Hadith into several holy books which you accept?

Do I sound like I'm stuttering? Well, it is better than the barking of a heretic dog like yourself.

The answer to your question is simple.

In the time of the Prophet's life, the Companions would write down ahadeeth in their own books.

After his death, the Companions decided to compile them SUBJECT-WISE. See, the Hadeeths were initially arranged NARRATOR-WISE, as each Sahabi had his own script. It was therefore decided that it would be more useful to arrange them in a better order.

You cannot complain at this, since the Quran also went through the same stages.

The first book of hadeeth that was compiled SUBJECT-WISE was Al-Abwâb of Imâm Sha'bi (19-103 A.H.). This book was divided into various chapters. Each chapter contained the ahâdîth relating to the same subject like salâh, zakâh, etc.

This was in the FIRST CENTURY, NOT 200 years later.

This proves that the first book of ahâdîth arranged in a regular manner appeared in the very first century. Another book was written by Hasan al-Basri (d.110) in which he compiled ahâdîth containing any explanations or commentaries of the Holy Qur'ân [Tadrîb ar-Râwi]. This was also a regular book written on a particular subject which appeared in the first century.

Now coming to your ignorant question about why these early books are not in use any more...

The reason is that those books were absorbed into the larger compilations. All these books and scripts written in the initial period were included in the larger books of hadîth written later on.

One of the books written in the days of the Tâbi'în was the script of Hammam ibn Munabbih, a pupil of Abu Hurairah, who prepared a book containing ahâdîth he heard from Abu Hurairah. This book is also known as "As-Sahîfah as-Sahîhah." All the ahâdîth of this book were included in later compilations. The full text of it is also found in the Musnad of Imâm Ahmad.

In 1373 A.H. (1954 C.E.), two manuscripts of this book (As-Sahifah as-Sahihah) were discovered in the libraries of Berlin and Damascus, and were published by Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah with a detailed introduction. Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah compared their text with the one narrated in the Musnad of Imâm Ahmad. He could not find any significant difference between the two texts.

This proves that the books of the Tâbi'în were included and were thus made part of the later books of hadîth, with all necessary precautions by which they can safely be relied upon.

So your question is stupid.

The early books of ahadeeth existed, but they were absorbed into larger books. So instead of having a bunch of small books, we could have a few really thick books.

The Compilations of the First Century

We present here a list of hadîth works written by the Tâbi'în in the first and second centuries. In the first century the following books of hadîth were compiled by the Tâbi'în:
1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma'dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih, already referred to.
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn 'Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn 'Abdullah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa'd (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwâb of Sha'bi, already referred to.
12. Books of Ibn Shihâb az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-'Aliyah
14. Book of Sa'id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of 'Umar ibn 'Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn 'Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

The Books of Hadîth Written in the Second Century

The basic characteristic of the books written in the second century is that a large number of them were arranged subject-wise, while the books of the first century were not. However, compilations without due arrangement continued in this century too. The list of books compiled in this period is very long. A few prominent books are referred to here:


1. Book of 'Abdul Malik ibn Juraij (d. 150)
2. Muwatta of Malik ibn Anas (93-179)
3. Muwatta of Ibn Abi Zi'b (80-158)
4. Maghâzi of Muhammad ibn Ishaq (d. 151)
5. Musnad of Rabi' ibn Sabih (d. 160)
6. Book of Sa'id ibn Abi 'Arubah (d. 156)
7. Book of Hammad ibn Salmah (d. 167)
8. Jami' Sufyan ath-Thauri (97-161)
9. Jami' Ma'mar ibn Rashid (95-153)
10. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Awzâ'I (88-157)
11. Kitâb az-Zuhd by 'Abdullâh ibn al-Mubârak (118-181)
12. Book of Hushaim ibn Bashir (104-183)
13. Book of Jarir ibn 'Abdul-Hamid (110-188)
14. Book of 'Abdullâh ibn Wahb (125-197)
15. Book of Yahya ibn Abi Kathîr (d. 129)
16. Book of Muhammad ibn Suqah (d. 135)
17. Tafsîr of Zaid ibn Aslam (d. 136)
18. Book of Musa ibn 'Uqbah (d. 141)
19. Book of Ash'ath ibn 'Abdul-Malik (d. 142)
20. Book of Aqil ibn Khalid (d. 142)
21. Book of Yahya ibn Sa'id Ansari (d. 143)
22. Book of Awf ibn Abi Jamilah (d. 146)
23. Books of Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Sadiq (d. 148)
24. Books of Yunus ibn Yazid (d. 152)
25. Book of 'Abdur-Rahman al-Mas'udi (d. 160)
26. Books of Zaidah ibn Qudamah (d. 161)
27. Books of Ibrahim al-Tahman (d. 163)
28. Books of Abu Hamzah al-Sukri (d. 167)
29. Al-Gharâib by Shu'bah ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 160)
30. Books of 'Abdul-Aziz ibn 'Abdullâh al-Majishun (d. 164)
31. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn 'Abdullâh ibn Abi Uwais (d. 169)
32. Books of Sulaiman ibn Bilal (d. 172)
33. Books of 'Abdullâh ibn Lahi'ah (d. 147)
34. Jami' Sufyan ibn 'Uyainah (d. 198)
35. Kitâb-ul-Âthâr by Imâm Abu Hanîfah (d. 150)
36. Maghâzi of Mu'tamir ibn Sulaiman (d. 187)
37. Musannaf of Waki' ibn Jarrah (d. 196)
38. Musannaf of 'Abdur-Razzâq ibn Hammam (136-221)
39. Musnad of Zaid ibn 'Ali (76-122)
40. Books of Imâm Shâfi'i (150-204)

The following books written in this age are still available in printed form:
1. Al-Muwatta by Imâm Mâlik.
2. Kitâb-ul-Âth