[Ugur]

As for Harun Yahya and his team. I am unfortunately suspicious of him too. Some enemies of his claim that he thinks (hopefully not) that he is the long-awaited mahdi. Some things he recently said make me suspect that it could be true. I hope not. And most probably I am worrying wrongly. Wait for the stupid incorrect generalizations made by evolutionists then. "Look Harun Yahya is nuts. Hence all creationists are nuts." Evolutionism is an ideology among other things and thus its proponents are not to be expected to be honest in their generalizations.

[hijabihoodlum]

i have a tendency to discredit people who use pen names. his real name is adnan oktar, and it's highly unlikely that he wrote all those books himself. it's hard to find solid information on this character and his organization. so the same way i dismiss those hosts (aka con artists) that manage to pop up in every other infomercial- be it for a financial or medical panacea, i dismiss this guy. so shoot me.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by hijabihoodlum

i have a tendency to discredit people who use pen names. his real name is adnan oktar, and it's highly unlikely that he wrote all those books himself. it's hard to find solid information on this character and his organization. so the same way i dismiss those hosts (aka con artists) that manage to pop up in every other infomercial- be it for a financial or medical panacea, i dismiss this guy. so shoot me.

You needn't be "shot" but just need be just forgiven about the simplistic way you think. To repeat, this is not to say that I am a big fan of Harun Yahya as a person, though. He and his disciples are just guys who are trying to defend their religion against materialism. But throughout history, several Muslim activists came to believe somehow in delusions like that they were the mahdi or another savior. I hope Harun Yahya is not one of them.

[hijabihoodlum]

Originally Posted by Ugur

He and his disciples are just guys who are trying to defend their religion against materialism.

i'm pretty sure they're insanely rich, just fyi. thanks for calling me simple. i try.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Do you people really read Harun Yahya before you pass judgement on his views? Apparently you don't.

Yeh, it was pretty dumb. It jumps to conclusions using negative arguments, and tries to draw legitimacy by saying childish things like "the New York Times even agrees" - when as far as I can tell, no columnist made such claims.

But the materialistic philosophical assumption is that God cannot be allowed to exist and therefore we cannot accept that the new genetic info was consciously placed. "It must have happened randomly, you know. Those who do not agree with our philosophy are unscientific. Any scientist who dares to disagree with us will be ridiculed and castigated as unscientific. We are the authorities of the day. We rule the roost."

Sounds like you're having an argument with an atheist, and as far as I can tell, there aren't any around here. So it sounds like you're having an argument with yourself.

[Jamroll]

I don't like that we're supposed to be related to things that are called "homo".

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh, it was pretty dumb. It jumps to conclusions using negative arguments, and tries to draw legitimacy by saying childish things like "the New York Times even agrees" - when as far as I can tell, no columnist made such claims.



Sounds like you're having an argument with an atheist, and as far as I can tell, there aren't any around here. So it sounds like you're having an argument with yourself.

Other secular religions, so to speak, such as deism, agnosticism and pantheism are not very different in their attitude toward theism. So my argument is against a great many people not just atheists.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by hijabihoodlum

i'm pretty sure they're insanely rich, just fyi. thanks for calling me simple. i try.

There are extremely rich religious groups in Turkey.

One of them I know rather closely. The source of their money is very very clear: There are thousands of rich and pious Muslims in Turkey who want to help Islam with their money. They financially support the leading scholars of this religious movement so that they could serve Islam more efficiently.

I suppose Harun Yahya's organization must be like that too.

[hijabihoodlum]

i have beef with his website. it's unprofessional and childish. perhaps some things are simply lost in translation, but when they state that he's so modest that he doesn't like posting pictures of himself or talking about himself, and then in the videos they post he calls himself courageous and whatnot, i find it hard to accept that SRF (his organization) is just a bunch of do gooders.

i wonder why more muslims don't research this more? if they have, someone please point me in the right direction; i'd love to get beyond the smokescreens and bad grammar.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Other secular religions, so to speak, such as deism, agnosticism and pantheism are not very different in their attitude toward theism. So my argument is against a great many people not just atheists.

Huh? Secular religions? Are you offended by people believing in evolution as opposed to God (because you seem to think they're mutually exclusive)? Or are you offended by people believing in other religions? Or are you just offended?

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

It's true. Most of the Christians I grew up with didn't believe in dinosaurs or any such thing. They believe (and I kid you not) that the earth is 5,000 years old, and that it was created with all the fossils and everything. It's a test of faith you see, the fossils and all that were created by God to confuse you and test your faith. If you look at the fossil record one would plainly believe in Evolution, since the evidence is plain as day. However, Evolution is in direct contradition with the Bible, which is the literal word of God, and so should take precedence over physical evidence.

I'm really not making this up. Not all Christians are strict creationists, but this is a common argument for those who are.

I don't think that's such a big deal. Props to them for believing in what they believe with a firm belief.

Originally Posted by hijabihoodlum

i have a tendency to discredit people who use pen names. his real name is adnan oktar,

Do you know how many Islamic scholars--both classical and contemporary--have used Kunyas (nicknames) instead of their real names??? It would be over half of them!

About Harun Yahya, Imam Bilal Philips has warned against him, due to his belief that Allah is everywhere. But I don't know myself...

[ChotooMotoo]

He's also not a scientist. His degree is in Philosophy.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by Variable

Huh? Secular religions? Are you offended by people believing in evolution as opposed to God (because you seem to think they're mutually exclusive)? Or are you offended by people believing in other religions? Or are you just offended?

I am not offended by anything now. People do have the right to keep their beliefs in full security and protection according to Islam.

But I am sorry that I was rather rude to you a few days ago because I was upset that, as I thought, you were not challenged (this challenge not needing to be impolite) enough by the Muslims in this forum regarding some contemptuous comments that you made about Islam or some Muslims. I was impolite, sorry.

As for evolution. As the writer Mustafa Akyol says (see the other recent thread I started about Homo Habilis), it is obvious that there has been immense change in nature during all the time that there has been life on earth. This should probably be called, yes, an evolution. Up to this point, evolution is not incompatible with religion, at least with Islam.

But tying this evolution to random natural events rather than to addition of genetic information by a conscious intelligence is a philosophical, ideological assumption and need not define science. It is not an "empirically established fact" either. I know this is not what most scientists want to say, but I have the right to disagree, pointing at the mentality and bias that is antagonistic to religion, that dominated the universities and the scientific community of the modern period. This mentality prevents these people from keeping scientifically objective about anything and everything, especially regarding an ideologically very hot and serious point of debate.

[Ugur]

About Harun Yahya: I am suspicious of him too. There are signs that he may be thinking he is the "mahdi" because he has served Islam very immensely according to himself. Although I hope this worry proves to be unnecessary, I want to state that I do have such a worry.

[hijabihoodlum]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Do you know how many Islamic scholars--both classical and contemporary--have used Kunyas (nicknames) instead of their real names??? It would be over half of them!

he is not an islamic scholar.