[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Shi`as. They ask the occupants of the graves for things, invoking du`as such as Ya Ali Madad (O Ali help me), etc. Du`a is worship.

I wish you could see yourself from the other angle.

Allah (SWT) has given you an ability of reasoning - Its a greatest gift -- If you only realize its value. Your 1000 years of ibadah will never equal this one gift of Allah. The best one can do is use this gift to say thank you.

I'd go to the grave of prophet (saw) and Sau Ya nabi-Allah help me "Ya Nabi Allah Madad" ---

Tell me what’s wrong in this?
Do you think I am worshiping Muhammad? You would have to be stupid to say that.
So how does this become Ibadah to Muhammad?

Doesn't your reasoning tell you that I am asking Ya Nabi-Allah, You are close to Allah - please help me -- plead to Allah on my behalf - and alleviate this difficulty of mine"

According to this - corrupt WAHABI thinking - Asking Prophet (SAW) to pleed for me is wrong - I DONT KNOW HOW DOES YOUR BRAIN COMPUTE TO ARRIVE TO THIS ILLOGICAL STAND POINT?
By the way it is not Haram for the Saudi Wahabi authority to say 'Ya America madad' OR 'Ya Bush madad' --- is it? ----- What is happening to you reasoning?

I don't mind asking Ali(A) to intercede for me - because he was with Prophet (saw) since he was a baby---He grew up in prophets arms. All the life of Prophet (saw) he had been the supporter, helper and he protected Prophet (saw) with his life, every time the opportunity presented its self. Ali (A) will certainly present my case to Prophet (saw), who in turn will take my case to Allah (swt)

WHERE IS WORSHIP OF ANY HUMAN BEING IN THIS?
Who is worshipping Ali or Muhammad here?
Why are you bent upon lying and twisting the truth?
WHAT IS BIDDAH IN THIS ?
Its only a sick a mind of a Biddah fanatic sheikhs, that come up with this stupidity.

[Hanbali]

I don't mind asking Ali(A) to intercede for me

“They worship besides Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, saying: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth? Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him!” (Yunus 18)

[bluey]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

I don't mind asking Ali(A) to intercede for me - because he was with Prophet (saw) since he was a baby---He grew up in prophets arms. All the life of Prophet (saw) he had been the supporter, helper and he protected Prophet (saw) with his life, every time the opportunity presented its self. Ali (A) will certainly present my case to Prophet (saw), who in turn will take my case to Allah (swt)

What is stopping you from directly asking forgiveness from Allah subhanna wa ta'ala? Does not Allah subhanna wa ta'ala say he is the most merciful to his slaves in the Qur'an and closer to us than our jugular veins. He, and only he, listens to us when we call upon him.

And Allah subhanna wa ta'ala knows best.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

I don't mind asking Ali(A) to intercede for me - because he was with Prophet (saw) since he was a baby---He grew up in prophets arms. All the life of Prophet (saw) he had been the supporter, helper and he protected Prophet (saw) with his life, every time the opportunity presented its self. Ali (A) will certainly present my case to Prophet (saw), who in turn will take my case to Allah (swt)

Bro, I respect your right to hold your own view, but do you realise that now you're just making intercessors out of intercessors? Now not only do we make the Prophet (saw) an intercessor to Allah, but now we're making Ali (ra) an intercessor to Muhammad (saw)? Where do we draw the line? What about people like Hasan and Husayn (ra), who grew up with Ali? Do we ask them for intercession to Ali (ra), and then Ali to Muhammad (saw) and then Muhammad to Allah (swt)?

Bro, this is exactly the kind of thing that Allah warns us against in the Qur'an. He (swt) tells us to call on him directly. We thank him directly. We ask Him for help directly.

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

“They worship besides Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, saying: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth? Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him!” (Yunus 18)

Originally Posted by bluey

What is stopping you from directly asking forgiveness from Allah subhanna wa ta'ala? Does not Allah subhanna wa ta'ala say he is the most merciful to his slaves in the Qur'an and closer to us than our jugular veins. He, and only he, listens to us when we call upon him.

And Allah subhanna wa ta'ala knows best.

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Bro, I respect your right to hold your own view, but do you realise that now you're just making intercessors out of intercessors? Now not only do we make the Prophet (saw) an intercessor to Allah, but now we're making Ali (ra) an intercessor to Muhammad (saw)? Where do we draw the line? What about people like Hasan and Husayn (ra), who grew up with Ali? Do we ask them for intercession to Ali (ra), and then Ali to Muhammad (saw) and then Muhammad to Allah (swt)?

Bro, this is exactly the kind of thing that Allah warns us against in the Qur'an. He (swt) tells us to call on him directly. We thank him directly. We ask Him for help directly.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In answer to all three post

There are two sets of Ayiet in Qur’an regarding this.


Fist set that prohibits intercessors

O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Those who reject Faith they are the wrong-doers.
[Al-Baqrah] --- 2:254


Give this warning to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to judgment) before their Lord: except for Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: that they may guard (against evil).
Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides God, any protector or helper.
[An-Nisa] --- 4:123


Give this warning to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to judgment) before their Lord: except for Him they will have no protector nor intercessor: that they may guard (against evil).
[Al-An'am] --- 6:51


[And God shall say:] "And now, indeed, you have come unto Us in a lonely state, even as We created you in the first instance; and you have left behind you all that We bestowed on you [in your lifetime]. And We do not see with you those intercessors of yours whom you supposed to have a share in God's divinity with regard to yourselves Indeed, all the bonds between you [and your earthly life] are now severed, and all your former fancies have forsaken you
[Al-An'am] --- 6:94


Are [the unbelievers] but waiting for the final meaning of that [Day of Judgment] to unfold? [But] on the Day when its final meaning is unfolded, those who aforetime had been oblivious thereof will say: "Our Sustainer's apostles have indeed told us the truth! Have we, then, any intercessors who could intercede in our behalf? Or could we be brought back [to life] so that we might act otherwise than we were wont to act?" Indeed, they will have squandered their own selves, and all their false imagery will have forsaken them.
[Al-A'raf] --- 7:53


and [neither will] they [who] worship, side by side with God, things or beings that can neither harm nor benefit them, saying [to themselves], "These are our intercessors with God!" [26] Say: "Do you [think that you could] inform God of anything in the heavens or on earth that He does not know? [27] Limitless is He in His glory, and sublimely exalted above anything to which men may ascribe a share in His divinity!"
[Yunus] --- 10:18

No intercessor will they have among their "Partners" and they will (themselves) reject their "Partners".
[Ar-Rum] --- 30:13

It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?
[As-Sajdah] --- 32:4

And yet, they choose [to worship], side by side with God, [imaginary] intercessors!” Say: “Why - even though they have no power over anything, and no understanding?”
[Az-Zumar] --- 39:43


Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.
[al-Muddaththir] --- 74:48


They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"
[Yunus] --- 10:18

These verses explicitly show that no one's intercession will help you. Only God can.

Lets look at the next set of verses....

"No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So far (is this the case) that, when terror is removed from their hearts (at the Day of Judgment, then) will they say, 'what is it that your Lord commanded?' they will say, 'That which is true and just; and He is the Most High Most Great'."
[Saba'] --- 34:23

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by ((Allah)) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.
[Ta-Ha] --- 20:109

Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)
[Al-Baqara] --- 2:255

He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).
[Al-Anbiya] --- 21:28

How many-so-ever be the angels in the heavens, their intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him.
[An-Najm] --- 53:26

Intercessors

There are two sets of Ayiets in Qur'an on this.

It is obvious that, the first set is a warning to idol worshipers, or who take the intercessors for whom Allah has given no indication what so ever.

But the second set, definitely indicates that there will be intersession – So by logical deduction, who do you think is likely to be the intercessors?

We shall stand behind Muhammad (saw) as his Ummah on the day of judgment.

Like wise all the other prophets will have their followers standing behind them.

AND remember Muhammad(saw) is sayyiedul Ambiah --- therefore all the other Prophets will stand in ranks behind Prophet (saw)

In Qur’an - Prophet (saw) asked, by Allah's orders, – "I ask of you no recompense for my service except the love of my ahlulbait." ---- Qur’an is authority upon us from the day it was revealed to the day of qiyamah - although the ahlulbait are not with us, the order still remains active --- i.e. we have to continue our love and attachment to them – Hence, these are also the intercessors before Allah.


FINALLY

Remember all the ayiets talk about the intersession on THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.
But vrs. regarding the love of ahlulbait – forces us to attachment in this world as well.

AND – Since Death is, by no means a break in relationship – Our Love for one who is HABIB-UL-LAH (BELOVED OF ALLAH) is in itself an ibadat-ullah -- Certainly Allah loves those whom He loves (i.e. prophet (saw) and his Ahlul-bait.)



Sister bluey --- Prophet (saw) is Habib-ul-lah (beloved of Allah) ---- Allah(swt) will look at the words, from his beloved, more favorably than from sinners like us. ---

And also If we approach before Allah, we do not know how to put our case before Him.
You must have seen people praying to Allah and we say don’t pray like this.

Some people are eloquent and know the way to approach the authority, Prophet (saw) who reached the peak of ilm, Iman and akhlaq (etc) is certainly more capable of putting our case before Allah (swt). Our stand behind Prophet (saw) indicates that we respectfully accept the authority of him who is beloved of Allah.

[Hanbali]

Ali Fazel, you are all over the place. Stop conflating issues.

There is intercession in this worldly life (i.e. tawassul) and there is intercession on the Day of Judgment. Stop conflating the two. You are a seriously confused person.

And then your random diatribes about side issues. Focus.

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Ali Fazel, you are all over the place. Stop conflating issues.

There is intercession in this worldly life (i.e. tawassul) and there is intercession on the Day of Judgment. Stop conflating the two. You are a seriously confused person.

And then your random diatribes about side issues. Focus.

Br. Hanbali

Conflating ?? Confused person ??

Your manner of communication shows you are hostile and biased.
It is obvious that, no matter what others says, you are a person who will forgo logic and stubbornly stick with your views.

1) Look at these Ayiets – do they indicate hereafter?

Allah. There is no God but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)
[Al-Baqara] --- 2:255

He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).
[Al-Anbiya] --- 21:28

2) Tell me, by what logic do you suggest that Allah will accept intercession on the Day of Judgment and reject it whilst we are on earth? --- Is Allah’s court subjected to the passage of time? WHY? --- Your ideology even puts shackles on the ability of Allah (SWT) ---- LOL

3) You are so blind [/snipped by mods] - that you severe all relations with Sayedna Muhammad (saw). (i.e. He is dead, gone. He is lifeless in his grave. He is a common human, unimportant) --- Destroy his grave. Destroy all signs of History. Only Allah is your goal, wipe every thing off)

How can you have any relation with Allah – When you are so blind – your love for sayyedna Muhammad is nonexistent --- you are out to destroy all the signs of the beloved of Allah? --- BUT THAN I BELIEVE THIS TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND OR DIGEST.


And certainly this did not make any sense to you

In Qur’an - Prophet (saw) asked, by Allah's orders, – "I ask of you no recompense for my service except the love of my ahlulbait." ---- Qur’an is authority upon us from the day it was revealed to the day of qiyamah - although the ahlulbait are not with us, the order still remains active --- i.e. we have to continue our love and attachment to them – Hence, these are also the intercessors before Allah.


But vrs. regarding the love of ahlulbait – forces us to attachment in this world as well.

AND – Since Death is, by no means a break in relationship – Our Love for one who is HABIB-UL-LAH (BELOVED OF ALLAH) is in itself an ibadat-ullah -- Certainly Allah loves those whom He loves (i.e. prophet (saw) and his Ahlul-bait.)

AND This

Sister bluey --- Prophet (saw) is Habib-ul-lah (beloved of Allah) ---- Allah(swt) will look at the words, from his beloved, more favorably than from sinners like us. ---

And also If we approach before Allah, we do not know how to put our case before Him.
You must have seen people praying to Allah and we say don’t pray like this.

Some people are eloquent and know the way to approach the authority, Prophet (saw) who reached the peak of ilm, Iman and akhlaq (etc) is certainly more capable of putting our case before Allah (swt). Our stand behind Prophet (saw) indicates that we respectfully accept the authority of him who is beloved of Allah.

[Hanbali]

“And your Lord says: ‘Call on Me, I will answer your (prayer).’” (Quran, 40:60)

“And invoke not, besides Allah, [anyone since that] will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers). And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace.” (Quran, 10:106-107)

“Verily those whom you call upon besides Allah are servants like you. Therefore, call upon them, and let them listen to your prayers, if you are (indeed) truthful!” (Quran, 7: 194)

“If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you…” (Quran, Chapter 35)

“Call upon those whom you imagine beside Allah! They have not an atom’s weight of power either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor does He need any of them as a helper.” (Quran, 34:22)

“Your aid alone we seek.” (Quran, 1:5)

[AliFazel]

Read again

Originally Posted by Hanbali

“And your Lord says: ‘Call on Me, I will answer your (prayer).’” (Quran, 40:60)

So what wrong with that? Yes Allah will answer the prayers. In the past have you not seen people suffering Leprosy and other illnesses --- Do you think they did not pray to Allah? ---- Yet they approached Hadret Isa (A) and by his intercession, Allah(swt) cured them. --- But before Hadret Isa’s intervention their prayers were unheeded..

THE WAY YOU READ QURAN, BY YOUR STANDARD, THOSE PEOPLE AND EVEN H ISA (a) COMITED A CRIME.

“And invoke not, besides Allah, [anyone since that] will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers). And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace.” (Quran, 10:106-107)

<........... that] will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but .......>.. i.e. Idols OR Their mullah, molvi, and religious icons.

What about that which will profit you ---- namely the beloved of Allah, -- Muhammad (saw)?

“Verily those whom you call upon besides Allah are servants like you. Therefore, call upon them, and let them listen to your prayers, if you are (indeed) truthful!” (Quran, 7: 194)

Who is praying to them OR asking them to alleviate problems?
One is only ask them to help intercede to Allah on ones behalf.

“If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you…” (Quran, Chapter 35)

Is this about prophet (saw) OR about those who call on Idols who cannot hear or answer (grant unilaterally) !!

Again - here isn't Allah (swt) referring to those who have no authority. i.e. Allah did not mention them at all or commissioned any office to them.

“Call upon those whom you imagine beside Allah! They have not an atom’s weight of power either in the heavens or in the earth, nor have they any share in either, nor does He need any of them as a helper.” (Quran, 34:22)

All this is referring to the idol worshiper.
It does not refer to those who worship Allah and seek help from His messengers to intercede for them.


THE BOTOM LINE
1) THERE IS NO IDOL WORSHIP.
2) NO PERSON BELIEVES THAT PROPHET CAN HELP WITHOUT ALLAH’S WILL OR PERMISSION.
3) DEATH AND LIFE HAS NO MEANING. -- ALL THE PROPHET INTERCEDED FOR THEIR FOLLOWERS WHEN THEY WERE ALIVE. AND THEY CAN INTERCEDE EVEN AFTER THEY HAVE PASSED AWAY.

e.g --- If you passed away at 40 – and your son came to your grave crying, saying, “father this world has become painful after your demise." (remember he is not praying to you – he is just complaining) And if Allah(swt) allowed you to hear that --- What would you do? Would you not turn to Allah and plead for your son? I certainly would. ---- And If Allah out of his grace did accept your prayer for your son, what was a harm in that

Commonsense prevails --- one does not have to be like those, rigid fatwah giving, know all, mullahs – who think they own the realm of Allah (swt).

[MossadConspiracy]

stop starting race wars

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

stop starting race wars

Thief ! Thief !

[MossadConspiracy]

everybody on earth is dead

due to the race wars

begun

on this

message board!

[AliFazel]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

stop starting race wars

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Thief ! Thief !

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

everybody on earth is dead

due to the race wars

begun

on this

message board!

LOL brothers it sounds funny – but I did not understand - Please explain.

And also - there are two objectives to this thread

1) If all the Muslim brothers understand this and express highest love for