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Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Old 03-01-2008, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AluQeema View Post
You really aren't understand the point I'm trying to make are you? Since in the other thread people were saying Jafar Sadiq's knowledge was miracle from Allah and therefore it means it was divine if it was from Allah then if he is saying follow Malik's opinion after me then why don't the people do so, in fact we know that even Malikis scholars don't do so fully.
We follow the madhhab of Imam Malik (radiallahu anhu), meaning the principles layed down by Imam Malik, not necessarily every opinion of Imam Malik. We follow a school of thought, not an individual.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AluQeema View Post
That's the problem I'm trying to point out.
It's not a problem. You just have a very poor understanding of how taqleed works in Sunni Islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AluQeema View Post
On another thread here some Sunni guy said Sunnis can do taqiayah as well to save their lives. Maybe they are scared to pray with their hands on the side in Saudi Arabia. And I did see the link, you didn't have to show it to me, if I didn't know that Malikis can pray with their hands on their side (but I haven't seen any in real life) I wouldn't have brought up the issue.
Sunnis don't kill each other for following different madhahib. The Malikis have a strong prescece in Makkah and Madinah and they pray with hands at sides unassailed. Sunnis don't kill each other for praying slightly differently.


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Yes, the original residents of Medina prayed with their hands on their sides, the people whose ancestors saw the Prophet pray and their generations continued to do so. Your own quote answers the question of what is the correct method. You know what else is interesting, if you go to Medina today and go into the interiror citiy you'll see all the original residents of Medina are Shia
Quit trying to equate Malikis with the Rawafidh. We are not at all similar. I pray with my arms at my sides, but that doesn't mean that you and I will have a cuddle party. If you read the Muwatta of Imam Malik (the most Sahih book on earth after the Qur'an) you will find that we Malikis rely greatly on Sayyidina Umar al-Faruq (radiallahu anhu) for our fiqh opinions. The Malikis have a great love for Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha, and Mu'awiya (radiallahu anhum).

Plus, a Maliki sister wrote a great book called Mu'awiya: Restorer of the Muslim Faith. You should read it.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim View Post
Quit trying to equate Malikis with the Rawafidh. We are not at all similar. I pray with my arms at my sides, but that doesn't mean that you and I will have a cuddle party. If you read the Muwatta of Imam Malik (the most Sahih book on earth after the Qur'an) you will find that we Malikis rely greatly on Sayyidina Umar al-Faruq (radiallahu anhu) for our fiqh opinions. The Malikis have a great love for Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha, and Mu'awiya (radiallahu anhum).
Correct me if I'm wrong but Malikis and Shi`as don't pray the same way. Sure, praying with your hands to the side is one similarity, but I'm pretty sure there are differences in prayer, no? So even if a Sunni saw a Maliki praying, you could differentiate this from the way Shi`as pray.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

I've no idea how Sunnis pray, but here is the Shia style: http://www.imammahdicenter.com/Library/salaat/index.htm

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Old 03-01-2008, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Salahadeen View Post
So even if a Sunni saw a Maliki praying, you could differentiate this from the way Shi`as pray.
You are correct. Malikis don't pray on little clay pieces, Malikis don't do that hand raising thing during Qunoot, Malikis raise their finger in tashahhud, etc.

Maliki and Shi'ah prayer are vastly different. The easiest way to tell the difference would be the little clay pieces the Rawafidh put their heads on.
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

Having said that bro, some Sunnis *do* pray on these clay pieces...the only difference is that Sunnis don't get the clay from sacred shrines, which is something that could lead to shirk.
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Salahadeen View Post
Having said that bro, some Sunnis *do* pray on these clay pieces...the only difference is that Sunnis don't get the clay from sacred shrines, which is something that could lead to shirk.
Praying towards the kaba COULD LEAD to shirk.

From what I heard from my sunni friends according to their fiqh, there are no 'conditoins' on what you put your head on when you pray.

For shias fiqh it must be something natural and not suitable for eating.

Bir
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Old 03-07-2008, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim View Post
Muwatta of Imam Malik (the most Sahih book on earth after the Qur'an) .
Who's opinion is this?
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Old 05-11-2008, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas View Post
Who's opinion is this?
Imam ash-Shafi'i.
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Old 05-11-2008, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Hanbali View Post
Have you found a single living scholar today who says that the Muwatta is superior in authenticity to Sahih Bukhari?
Al-Muwatta, Sahih al-Bukhari, and Sahih Muslim are all equally Sahih.

Every hadith contained in these books is authentic.
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Old 05-11-2008, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

Helloooooooooo.........
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:08 AM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim View Post
Imam ash-Shafi'i.
I must add that Imam Shafi'i DID say this about the Muwatta, but don't forget that he said this before Bukhaari and Muslim compiled their Sahihayn. His statement was correct in his time, and the fact that Bukhari's book is the most authentic after the Quran is correct in our times.
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jinnzaman, why is every post of yours an essay? i mean i rather read a salafi cut in paste job, it would make more sense.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim View Post
You are correct. Malikis don't pray on little clay pieces, Malikis don't do that hand raising thing during Qunoot, Malikis raise their finger in tashahhud, etc.

Maliki and Shi'ah prayer are vastly different. The easiest way to tell the difference would be the little clay pieces the Rawafidh put their heads on.
Malikis do use clay to pray on afaik.. they prefer to prostrate on natural surfaces
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

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Originally Posted by ibnIslam View Post
I must add that Imam Shafi'i DID say this about the Muwatta, but don't forget that he said this before Bukhaari and Muslim compiled their Sahihayn. His statement was correct in his time, and the fact that Bukhari's book is the most authentic after the Quran is correct in our times.
Every Hadith in the Muwatta is authentic, as is also the case with al-Bukhari. This makes them equally Sahih. Arguing otherwise is either semantics or anti-Maliki bias.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

Just wanted to add:

1. Al-Muwatta is considered to be more Sahih than both al-Bukhari and al-Muslim in certain regards in spite of having mursal narrations due to the shortness in its chains of narrations and also because those mursal narrations were later confirmed to be sahih by subsequent scholars, increasing their stature.

2. There were many scholars of hadeeth in the past that held this opinion, even after the compilations by Bukhari and Muslim.

3. There are living scholars today who hold the opinion that al-Muwatta is more sahih then the sahihayn, and these scholars are not even Maliki (they're Deobandi).
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Imam Jafar on Imam Malik (ra)

As salaamu aleykum Abdul_Karim, I have a few questions regarding your assertion that the Muwatta and the "two sahihs" are equally authentic. I am a non-Muslim and very much want to convert to Islam, however, am having some intellectual hang-ups. I hope that you can help me sort them out.

You say that, "Every Hadith in the Muwatta is authentic, as is also the case with al-Bukhari. This makes them equally Sahih. Arguing otherwise is either semantics or anti-Maliki bias." I disagree. I think that Malikis are very interesting and am not trying to sway either way, I am simply trying to find the truth so I can be convinced of Islam and practice the correct sunnah.

Although I only started researching different madhabs a few weeks ago, I have come across some things I would like clarification on. For instance, the Muwatta narrates the following story:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Yahya ibn Said said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, had wanted to take two pieces of wood to strike them together to gather people for the prayer, and Abdullah ibn Zayd al-Ansari, then of the tribe of Harith ibn al-Khazraj, was shown two pieces of wood in his sleep. He said, 'These are close to what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, wants.' Then it was said, 'Do you not call to the prayer?', so when he woke up he went to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and mentioned the dream to him. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered the adhan." Book 3, Number 3.1.1.

However, this is the version recorded in Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: When the Muslims arrived at Medina, they used to assemble for the prayer, and used to guess the time for it. During those days, the practice of adhan for the prayers had not been introduced yet. Once they discussed this problem regarding the call for prayer. Some people suggested the use of a bell like the Christians, others proposed a trumpet like the horn used by the Jews, but 'Umar was the first to suggest that a man should call (the people) for the prayer; so Allah's Apostle ordered Bilal to get up and pronounce the adhan for prayers. Book #11, Hadith #578

So, although it doesn't have any impact on fiqh, the two stories do not line up. I personally think it sounds a bit insulting to the Prophet to think that his original idea for the adhan was hitting wood together. One has to not be correct.

Although I agree that in some aspects of the deen there is room for minor disagreement, what concerns me the most between all the madhabs is the wide divergence on critical laws, for instance, whether sodomy requires a hadd punishment or not. The following tradition is recorded in the Muwatta:

Malik related to me that he had heard that Uthman ibn Affan was brought a woman who had given birth after six months and he ordered her to be stoned. Ali ibn Abi Talib said to him, "She does not deserve that. Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, says in His Book, 'Their carrying and weaning is thirty months,' (Sura 46 ayat 15) and he said, 'Mothers suckle their children for two full years for whoever wishes to complete the suckling.' (Sura 2 ayat 233) Pregnancy can then be six months, so she does not deserve to be stoned." Uthman ibn Affan sent for her and found that she had already been stoned. Malik related to me that he asked Ibn Shihab about someone who committed sodomy. Ibn Shihab said, "He is to be stoned, whether or not he is muhsan." Muwatta Book #41, Hadith #41.1.11

Noticeably, however, the two sahihs do not contain anything about a punishment for sodomy. However, there is the following tradition, narrated in both Bukhari and Muslim:

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Sahih Bukhari Book #83, Hadith #17

This hadith, in addition to some Qur'anic interpretation, led Abu Hanifa to completely abandon any hadd in the case of sodomy in favor of a ta3zir, and led Shafi'i to declare that sodomy was synonymous with zina, thus a muhsan would receive stoning while a ghayr muhsan received lashes, in contrast to the Maliki view that muhsans and ghayr muhsans are both put to death. The hadith sounds pretty unequivocal that these are the only times the blood of a Muslim can be shed. Obviously this has led to divergence on the issue of liwat.

Additionally, there is the narration in the Muwatta about Umar adding a new phrase to the fajr adhan:

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the muadhdhin came to Umar ibn al-Khattab to call him to the subh prayer and found him sleeping, so he said, "Prayer is better than sleep," and Umar ordered him to put that in the adhan for subh. 3.1.8

Shafi'i rejected this and as narrated in his Kitab al Umm, (Pages 73-74 in my Arabic edition) he favored leaving out "prayer is better than sleep" and deemed it an innovation, however, later, according to the commentary by al-Muzani, accepted it based on the hadith now narrated in Sunan Abu Dawud (Book #2, #504), Tahhawi, Ahmad, and Tirmidhi, and rejected the story about Umar:

ألقى علي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الأذان حرفا حرفا الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر الله أكبر أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله أشهد...
...أن لا إله إلا الله أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله حي على الصلاة حي على الصلاة حي على الفلاح حي على الفلاح قال وكان يقول في الفجر الصلاة خير من النوم الراوي: أبو محذورة - المحدث: أبو داود - المصدر:
سنن أبي داود - الصفحة أو الرقم