[IbnAbdullah]

This thread is not about 'sectarianism', this is about Muslims not any sects, and in this thread I want to ask shias if they do takfir on those shia scholars who have disbelieved in Quran by claiming that the Quran is partially 'inaccurate' or fabricated.

[Biryani]

According to Shia fiqh rejecting the Quran is equivalent to rejecting the final messenger which takes you outside the boundaries of Islam.

There were some Shias historically who claimed such a belief (around 10th century if my memory serves me) but even at their time they were rejected as Ghulaat (misguided).

Bir

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by Biryani

According to Shia fiqh rejecting the Quran is equivalent to rejecting the final messenger which takes you outside the boundaries of Islam.

This is not true, dear colleague.

Yes, according to Sunnis, it is KUFR to deny even one single verse of the Quran.

However, according to Shi`as and Shia Fiqh, it is NOT KUFR to deny any part of the Quran. How could it be Kufr when so many famous Shi`a scholars believed in Tahrif (tampering / corruption) of the Quran? In fact, the Shi`as go even further, and they say that YOU would be a biddati for saying that it is kufr to question a part of the Quran. Some even go to the extreme and say that such a person--who claims such a thing--is a kaafir, because whoever 'wrongfully' accuses another of kufr is himself a kaafir. This is the length that the Shi`as go to, in order to protect their classical scholars, who believed in tahrif.

As proof, I give to you "The Shi'ite Encyclopedia". This Encyclopedia needs no introduction...it is available on Al-Islam.org, the most popular and authentic of the Shi`a websites...it is a very authoritative book of the Shi`as, one they routinely use in their propaganda against the Sunnis.

Here you go, straight from The Shi'ite Encyclopedia:

Originally Posted by The Shi'ite Encyclopedia

One important remark, here, is that, we cannot call any person (Shi'a
or Sunni) who claims Quran is incomplete, as Kafir. This is simply
because believing in the completeness of Quran is not an article of
faith, nor do we have any tradition saying that anyone who claims
Quran is incomplete, is a Kafir. Also, the verse of Quran that states
that Allah is the protector of the Reminder, can be interpreted
differently. (Logically we cannot prove the lack of alteration in
Quran by Quran!)

We can not add anything to the articles of faith after the demise of
the Prophet (PBUH&HF), specially something like completeness of a
Quran that was compiled at the time of Uthman long after the demise of
the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Thus claiming Kufr would be an innovation and a
false accusation and according to Islamic teachings such accusation
will result in serious consequences for the accuser. If a Muslim dose
not agree with completeness of the Quran at hand, such wrong idea does
not make his belief deficient if he still believes in all what have
been revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is truth. Much the same as all
Muslims agree that all the Sunna of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is truth,
though some of his Sunna may not have reached us.

Source: Tabarsi and incompleteness of Quran

[Biryani]

Dear Brother Salahaden,

I think you read IbnAbdullah's question wrong.

>> I want to ask shias if they do takfir on those shia scholars who have disbelieved in Quran by claiming that the Quran is partially 'inaccurate' or fabricated.

There is a difference between claiming the Quran is inaccurate or fabricated and claiming it is incomplete. As I stated in my previous post, claiming the Quran is inaccurate or fabricated is eqivalent to rejecting Prophethood (nabuwwa) which is a principle of belief (usul al din). This would be equated to Kufr.

The answer which you have posted is addressing those who hold a belief that the Quran is incomplete. The article that you posted also says this right after that:

What we can say about those individuals, who do not believe in
completeness of the Quran that we have at hand, is that they are sadly
mistaken in understanding the meaning of the traditions on which they
based their proof.

Bir

[Salahadeen]

Dear Biryani,

Please read the quote from Shi'ite Encyclopedia carefully. I will underline relevant part:

Originally Posted by The Shi'ite Encyclopedia

One important remark, here, is that, we cannot call any person (Shi'a
or Sunni) who claims Quran is incomplete, as Kafir. This is simply
because believing in the completeness of Quran is not an article of
faith, nor do we have any tradition saying that anyone who claims
Quran is incomplete, is a Kafir. Also, the verse of Quran that states
that Allah is the protector of the Reminder, can be interpreted
differently. (Logically we cannot prove the lack of alteration in
Quran by Quran!)

source: Tabarsi and incompleteness of Quran

So the Shi'ite Encylcopedia is clearly talking about tahreef in general , not just the belief in incompleteness of Quran. Rather, they clearly mention "ALTERATION".

Anyways, I'm positive that the Shi`as do not pass takfeer on the one who believes in Tahreef.

You really would need to validate your claims with proof. Please provide a fatwa from a reliable Shi`a source that says it is KUFR to believe in tahreef (tampering) of Quran.

I have consistently read otherwise, and even Rahat has admitted that the Shi`as don't pass takfeer on the one who believes in Tahreef of Quran.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Biryani

There is a difference between claiming the Quran is inaccurate or fabricated and claiming it is incomplete. As I stated in my previous post, claiming the Quran is inaccurate or fabricated is eqivalent to rejecting Prophethood (nabuwwa) which is a principle of belief (usul al din). This would be equated to Kufr.

Bir

I don't understand how Quran can be 'accurate' while it is 'incomplete' as believed by a number of shia scholars.

Or should we understand by that the 'complete Quran' is with Imam Mehdi and the present Quran of sunnis is 'incomplete'.

[Salahadeen]

Dear Biryani -- We're waiting.

[Biryani]

Salahadeen,

I'm not sure I can simplify it anymore for you. Read the original question. The original question is asking about Quran being inaccurate or fabricated. If you still don't understand my post read the original quesiton a number of times and try to think about it.

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

I don't understand how Quran can be 'accurate' while it is 'incomplete' as believed by a number of shia scholars..

Your question is how can something be accurate while being incomplete. You can understand this concept through a simple project you can do at home:

1) Take a math book
2) Tear out pages 24 and 82
3) Now ponder to yourself. By taking these pages are the formulas in the book inaccurate all of a sudden?
4) Next remind yourself that because you tore out two pages the book is no longer complete.

Or should we understand by that the 'complete Quran' is with Imam Mehdi and the present Quran of sunnis is 'incomplete'

How do you look yourself int he mirror? Are you not going to be ashamed in front of God that you spent your whole life accusing people of having a certain belief that they did not have? Do you really think Allah (swt) admires this ability? Do you think the scholars you support are going to be proud of you because you, in order to hide your inability to debate, feel it necessary to attribute beliefs to groups which they do not believe?

I hope Allah swt guides you. I'm glad I do not have the same religion as you. My Prophet pbuh was a mercy to mankind not a harrasment the way you are.

Bir

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Biryani

Salahadeen,

I'm not sure I can simplify it anymore for you. Read the original question. The original question is asking about Quran being inaccurate or fabricated. If you still don't understand my post read the original quesiton a number of times and try to think about it.

Well, the original question was:

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

This thread is not about 'sectarianism', this is about Muslims not any sects, and in this thread I want to ask shias if they do takfir on those shia scholars who have disbelieved in Quran by claiming that the Quran is partially 'inaccurate' or fabricated.

Originally Posted by Biryani

Your question is how can something be accurate while being incomplete. You can understand this concept through a simple project you can do at home:

1) Take a math book
2) Tear out pages 24 and 82
3) Now ponder to yourself. By taking these pages are the formulas in the book inaccurate all of a sudden?
4) Next remind yourself that because you tore out two pages the book is no longer complete.

How do you look yourself int he mirror? Are you not going to be ashamed in front of God that you spent your whole life accusing people of having a certain belief that they did not have? Do you really think Allah (swt) admires this ability? Do you think the scholars you support are going to be proud of you because you, in order to hide your inability to debate, feel it necessary to attribute beliefs to groups which they do not believe?

I hope Allah swt guides you. I'm glad I do not have the same religion as you. My Prophet pbuh was a mercy to mankind not a harrasment the way you are.

Bir

Don't get harrassed, answer this:

Allama Mohsin Kashi, in the preface of Tafsir Safi, quoting traditions of Tehrif, says on page 32 (printed in Tehran, 1375 h)

The conclusion of all these narrations as well as the hadiths which have been reported with the sanad of Ahlul Bayt, is that the Quran which is with us is not exactly as it was revealed to Muhammad s.a.w but in there something is against what Allah revealed and there are some changes and tampering and certainly much of its content has been removed for example the name of Imam Ali from many places, in addition to this it is known from these narrations that the order of this Quran (arrangement of verses and chapters) is not as was agreed by Allah and His Messenger. This all is agreed upon by Ali bin Ibrahim Qummi.

So Allama Mohsin Kashi or Ali bin Ibrahim Qummi are still Muslims?

[rahat]

Shaikh Tabarasi? From 1100 AD? Thats the best example you have? Your gonna ignore 99.9% of Shia scholars for him?

No Shia scholar has said that the Quran is incomplete or altered. The maximum that has ever been said is that there is the theoretical hypothetical unlikely possibility. Nothing further. That is what Shaikh Tabarasi has said. Beyond him with your other guys, only mujtahids matter - no other scholars in the Shia thought.

And due to decreases in Shia oppression, our hadith system is more universal and any 900 year old scholars who might've thought about tahreef are now seen in the light of not having all the resources to understand the truth.

It is kufr to deny a single dot in the Quran, and no Shia scholar has ever denied a single millimeter of it.

Someone can believe in the theoretical possibilty of tahreef as much as they want, but no Shia is allowed whatsoever to deny a single word of the Quran or add a single word to it. That is most certainly kufr.

Of course, when Umar is fabricating verses into existence - why focus on the "minority sect"?

Umar narrated: Allah sent Muhammad (saw) with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married persons, male and female, who commit adultery) and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle (saw) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book', and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, p.539).

But if you don't wanna talk about that - why don't you respond to Shaikh Tabarasi's argument:

Do you have a hadith of the Prophet that says that belief in tahreef is Kufr?

Yes

or

No.

-
rahat

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by rahat

Of course, when Umar is fabricating verses into existence - why focus on the "minority sect"?

Umar narrated: Allah sent Muhammad (saw) with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married persons, male and female, who commit adultery) and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle (saw) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book', and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, p.539).

Mods, please take notice of the hate-mongering fanatic, slandering the sahaba.
rahat is trying to cause flaming in this thread so that this topic can't be debated and be closed with an excuse of 'flaming'. I do understand their tactics.

Do you have a hadith of the Prophet that says that belief in tahreef is Kufr?

Yes

or

No.

-
rahat

Do we have a hadith of the Prophet that believing shias are non-Muslim minority sect is kufr?

[rahat]

Why do you get so upset at Sahih Bukhari? I haven't said anything thats not quoted in your book.

I noticed your avoidance of the yes or no question.

Bravo.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by rahat

Why do you get so upset at Sahih Bukhari? I haven't said anything thats not quoted in your book.

I noticed your avoidance of the yes or no question.

Bravo.

Suppose there's no hadith to do takfir of those who believe Quran is incomplete, it means you are free to reject the accuracy of Quran? Yes or no?
Well, don't worry, Quran itself will prove that those who reject the accuracy of Quran, are Kuffar.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by rahat

Of course, when Umar is fabricating verses into existence - why focus on the "minority sect"?

Umar narrated: Allah sent Muhammad (saw) with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married persons, male and female, who commit adultery) and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle (saw) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book', and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, p.539).

Rahat, you have proved yourself to be a complete ignoramus.

Your ignorance has made a complete fool of yourself. You accuse `Umar ibn al-Khatab (ra) of inventing the Ayat al-Rajm (Verse of Stoning).

Such an argument would only be made a foolish Shi`a layperson--nobody else.

The joke is on you, you fool. The Shi`a scholarship is in AGREEMENT that the verse of Rajm existed in the Quran, but then it was abrogated but the ruling for it remains. (The exact same thing that Umar [ra] said.) So are all the Shi`a scholars now "fabricating verses into existence"?

Here you go, from one Rafidhi to another:

Verse of Stoning Abrogated, According to Shi`a Scholars

Tafseer Majma ul Bayan volume 1, page 338-339
والنسخ في القرآن على ضروب منها: أن يرفع حكم الآية وتلاوتها، كما روي عن أبي بكر أنه قال: كنا نقرأ (لا ترغبوا عن آبائكم فإنه كفر بكم). ومنها: أن تثبت الآية في الخط، ويرفع حكمها كقوله (وإن فاتكم شئ من أزواجكم إلى الكفار فعاقبتم) الآية. فهذه ثابتة اللفظ في الخط، مرتفعة الحكم. ومنها ما يرتفع اللفظ، ويثبت الحكم، كآية الرجم، فقد قيل: إنها كانت منزلة، فرفع لفظها. وقد جاءت أخبار كثيرة بأن أشياء كانت في القرآن، فنسخ تلاوتها. فمنها ما روي عن أبي موسى، أنهم كانوا يقرأون: " لو أن لابن آدم واديين من مال، لابتغى إليهما ثالثا، ولا يملأ جوف ابن آدم إلا التراب، ويتوب الله على من تاب " ثم رفع. وعن انس أن السبعين من الأنصار الذين قتلوا ببئر معونة، قرأنا فيهم كتابا. " بلغوا عنا قومنا إنا لقينا ربنا فرضي عنا، وأرضانا) ثم إن ذلك رفع. وقال أبو عبيدة معنى ننسأها أي: نمضيها فلا ننسخها، قال طرفة:

[ 339 ]

أمون كألواح الإران نسأتها

And the abrogations in the Quran are of multiple types: That the judgement of the Verse is lifted along with its reading, as was narrated by Abu Bakr: We used to read: (لا ترغبوا عن آبائكم فإنه كفر بكم)
(Rough translation: “Do not loathe your parents for it will be a (sign of) unbelief for you”).
and also (of the types of abrogation) that the Ayah stays in writing and its directive is abrogated, such as (وإن فاتكم شئ من أزواجكم إلى الكفار فعاقبتم), the Verse1 [And if any of your wives have gone from you to the disbelievers, and you have an accession (by the coming over of a woman from the other side)…], for it is (currently) written in the (Quranic) script.

And of (the types of abrogation) is that in which the writing is lifted, and the judgement remains, such as the Ayah of Rajm, for it is said: It was revealed, but its writing was abrogated. And there are numerous reports that there were things in the Quran whose recitation was abrogated. And of this (type), that which was reported from Abi Musa, that they used to read: “" لو أن لابن آدم واديين من مال، لابتغى إليهما ثالثا، ولا يملأ جوف ابن آدم إلا التراب، ويتوب الله على من تاب "

[“If for the Son of Adam there were two valleys of wealth, he would desire a third, and nothing stops the greed of the Son of Adam save the dust (in his grave), and Allah forgives whosoever turns to Him”]2, then it was abrogated. And from Anas that seventy from the Ansaar who were killed in Banar Maunah (I believe it is the name of a Battle), they read: “" بلغوا عنا قومنا إنا لقينا ربنا فرضي عنا، وأرضانا [rough translation: “Inform from us to our people that when we meet our Lord he will be please with us, and will make us pleased”], an that this had been later abrogated. And Abu Ubaydah said, the meaning of “it was abrogated” is: “Its duty was fulfilled, not that it was abrogated” [that is, it was a Verse revealed for a particular occasion and then the purpose was fulfilled, its abrogation was not the same as a deletion of the Ayah of Rajm, where the Verse was deleted but