[Salahadeen]

Question: Does Allah have a "place"?

Answer: It depends on what you mean by "place". But either definition you take, you MUST ACCEPT that Allah Almighty is above the Heavens.

1. Some scholars define "place" as being part of creation, an entity composed of matter and filled with atoms, etc. In other words, "place" is an object. This definition means that "place" is something physical and not limited to one's mind. In this terminology, "place" is one of the creation, just like an apple, chair, or donkey. Therefore, one could say: "Allah Almighty exists above the creation, and therefore He does not exist in a place."

2. The other way that scholars define "place"--and the more appropriate way--is that a "place" is just a theoretical concept which exists only in the mind. It is not an object or creation, but rather a descriptive and theoretical term. Just like "love" is a theoretical term, not a physical creation. Another example is like numbers; we say that Allah is ONE. One is a number; it is not a creation, rather it is a theoretical term to describe something.

In the latter case, then we have no problem in saying that Allah's place is above the Heavens. As long as one does not think of place as being a physical creation, but rather a theoretical term like the number one.

Question: Does Allah have a location?

Answer: Same as the above answer. If by location you mean a space that confines Allah within the creation, then no! But if by location you mean that Allah Almighty is separate from His creation and above it, then yes the location of Allah is above us.

Question: Does Allah have a direction (al-Jihah)?

Answer: I hope you are getting the point now...

1. There is one group that took the opinion that "direction" means something created...a physical entity composed of matter and atoms. And they say that "direction" means that Allah would be surrounded, ENCOMPASSED, and CONTAINED by His creation. In other words, Allah had to have a body which was encompassed by creation, in order to have a direction. The way this group defines the word "direction" was explained by Imam al-Qurtubi:

al-Qurtubee also said in ‘al-Asnaa’: "...In their view, direction does not have the aspect of ‘above’ to it. This is because to them, when Allaah is designated with direction, this would necessitate that He is restricted to a place (makaan) and a confine (hayyiz).

The key phrase here is that to this group, "direction" does not mean "above", but rather it means being confined or restricted to a place, namely a physical entity called "direction".

2. The second group takes the definition of the word "direction" to be a theoretical concept. A descriptor only, denoting up, down, left, right, etc. This group does NOT believe that Allah is encompassed by the six directions, because such an understanding means that the directions are creations, full of matter and atoms. Rather, "direction" is just a theoretical descriptor. So yes, the direction of Allah is up, above the Heavens.

If we use the second definition of "direction", then denying Allah has direction would be KUFR:

If one says that the word "direction" is a descriptor, as in above, down, up, left, right, inside the world, outside it, etc....then if one says that Allah does not exist in any of those, then this is saying that Allah does not exist at all! This is describing Allah as being non-existent! This is what the atheists say, that Allah does not exist anywhere.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said:

"And this is from that which the Scholars of Ahl us-Sunnah and the Imaams of the Deen are agreed upon, that the saying of the Jahmiyyah that, 'He is not above the Throne nor inside the world, nor outside of it' implies that He is non-existent, having no reality, nor existence, and they (the Ahl us-Sunnah) have explained this more than once." (Bayaan ut-Talbees, 2/104)

Conclusion

You can either AFFIRM that Allah has direction, or you can NEGATE it, but it depends on what DEFINITION you use for the word "direction". But no matter what, you MUST ACCEPT that Allah is above the Heavens.

Shaykh al-Islam said:

"The people have three sayings about the application of the word 'al-jihah' (direction):

1. A group negates it,
2. Another affirms it
3. And the other explains the matter

And this divergence is found amongst the affirmers of the Attributes of the companions of the four Imaams and their likes. The dispute of the People of Hadeeth and Sunnah, however, regarding the denial and affirmation of it is a dispute regarding the word itself, it is not a dispute concerning the meaning.

1. For this reason, a group from the companions of Ahmad, such as the Taimees [6], al-Qaadee in one of his two sayings negates it

2. And another group (which is) the majority of which affirm it, and this is also the second of the two sayings of al-Qaadee.

This (difference) is because the word 'al-jihah' (direction) sometimes refer to that which exists and can sometimes refer to that which does not exist. It is also known that there is nothing in existence save the Creator and the created. So when something that exists that is other than Allaah is intended by the word 'al-jihah', it is from the creation of Allaah, and nothing from the creation surrounds or encompasses Allaah, the Most High. And if by 'al-jihah' (direction) something which does not exist is intended - and that is whatever is above the world, then there is nothing above it save Allaah alone."

End quote. Quoted from Minhaj as-Sunnah.




More to come...Insha-Allah...PLEASE NO LONG COPY-PASTES...whatever you add should be original, or else just give the link. I ask the moderators to strictly enforce that to prevent people from bombing this thread with lengthy articles.

[Variable]

So would Allah exist beyond the boundaries of the universe (i.e. outside of 'space')?

[Salahadeen]

Two Groups from the People of the Truth, and the Third Group are the Asharis

So we have seen in the previous post that there are two groups from amongst the People of the Truth, and they differ only in the meaning of the word "direction", but they all accept that Allah is above the Heavens.

The FIRST group: One group accepts that Allah is above the Heavens but denies that Allah has direction.

The SECOND group: The second group accepts that Allah is above the Heavens and says that Allah has a direction above us.

BOTH of the ABOVE two groups agree that Allah is NOT ENCOMPASSED by, or CONTAINED by, or SURROUNDED by direction / creation / etc.

This is mentioned in the book "Mountains of Knowledge" which is a summary of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah's work:

Therefore, the actual dispute concerning the word 'al-jihah' (direction) is amongst the People of Truth and it is a difference with respect to the word not the meaning, since they are unanimously agreed upon the denial and negation of Allaah being encompassed and surrounded, and this is the meaning which is forbidden. So whoever says, 'The word 'al-jihah' (direction) is used because its meaning is that Allaah is above the Throne' and whoever says, 'The word 'al-jihah' is not to be used because it has not been narrated or reported (from the Salaf), rather it should just be affirmed that Allaah is above the Throne', then both of them have negated the meaning which is prohibited (i.e. that Allaah is limited and confined) and they have followed the aided truth. And by all of this, the deceit and suspicion is unveiled from its very foundation, and Allaah is the Guide.

The THIRD group: The third group--the Ashari Sufis--denies that Allah above the Heavens and they say that Allah has no direction.

What the Ashari Sufis do is play a trick, whereby they quote people from the FIRST group and try to use it as a proof. We saw that in the other thread, in which Brother Yahya from Sufi Forum was quoted as saying:

Abu Ja3far at-TaHaawiy: "He is not contained by the 6 directions." -in his famous Aqidah

Yes, we agree that Allah is not contained by the six directions!!!!

Ali bin al-Husayn (Zayn ul-3aabideen): "You are Allah who is not limited."

Ali bin al-Husayn (Zayn ul-3aabideen): "Place does not encompass Him."

Yes, place does not encompass Him!!! And Allah is NOT limited!!!

So our disagreement is not with the first TWO groups, but rather it is with the THIRD group, those that deny that Allah is above the Heavens!!!

[Salahadeen]

Creed of Hamawiyyah
BY: Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah

We neither affirm or deny the word 'direction' [al Jihah] to Allaah, but look to see what is meant by it...

9.2 IF WHAT IS MEANT IS THE DIRECTION OF ABOVE AND HE IS SURROUNDED BY THIS DIRECTION
- Then this is to be denied from Allaah.
- He is too Mighty and Majestic to be surrounded by anything created...


9.3 IF WHAT IS MEANT IS THE DIRECTION OF ABOVE, BEFITTING HIS MAJESTY AND GREATNESS, WITHOUT BEING SURROUNDED BY THIS DIRECTION
- Then this is correct and obligatory for Him and is to be affirmed for Him.

[Salahadeen]

The classical scholar of the Asharis, Imam al-Qurtubi (ra), admitted:

"And the Salaf of the very first times (may Allaah be pleased with them all) never used to negate direction (al-jihah) for Allaah and nor did they used to express this (negation). Rather, they, and all of the others, used to speak with its affirmation for Allaah, the Most High just as His Book has spoken about it and just as His Messengers informed of it. And not a single one of the Salaf denied that his ascending (istawaa) the Throne was real and true (haqeeqah) (as opposed to metaphorical, majaaz)." [Imam Qurtubi's commentary on Surah 7:54]

I cannot understate how important Imam al-Qurtubi (ra) is to these Sufis...right there, he just admitted that the Asharis are going against what the Salaf commanded!

Even more blatant than this, Imam al-Qurtubi said:

“The most correct of these opinions, although I do not adopt it or choose it for myself, is the opinion which numerous Quranic versus and narrations agreed on reporting: Allah SWT is over His throne, as He mentioned in His book, and His Prophet’s sayings, without a howness, He is separate from His creation. This is the opinion of the righteous predecessors (Salaf) as reported by the trustworthy.” [Aqaweel al-Thiqaat 1/132]

The Asharis are actually known for their saying:

"The way of the Salaf (the predecessors) is safer but the way of the khalaf (those who came afterwards) is wiser."

And they claim that the Salaf were too busy fighting Jihad and establishing the state to know about proper aqeedah or have knowledge of that!

I think these quotes by Imam al-Qurtubi make it clear that the early Asharis admitted they were going against the Salaf, something which modern day Asharis vehemently deny.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by Variable

So would Allah exist beyond the boundaries of the universe (i.e. outside of 'space')?

This world and the heavens are all creation. Allah's essence exists outside and above all of that. So whatever the boundaries of creation are--which includes the earth and the heavens--then Allah's Essence is above all of that.

[Abdul_Karim]

Stop conflating "Ash'ari" with "Sufi". Yes, most Sufis today are Ash'aris, but Sufi and Ash'ari are two different things. Imam Qurtubi (rahimahullah) was an Ash'ari, but he was never a Sufi. Shaykh al-Islam Abu Isma'il al-Harawi (rahimahullah) was the most important Sufi of his time but he hated the Ash'aris with a passion. Likewise, many of the Ash'aris were highly anti-Sufi. Sufism and Ash'arism have nothing to do with each other (although it is possible for someone to be both).

[Salahadeen]

Scholars who said that Allah is ABOVE the Heavens

I will quote from the book "Mountains of Knowledge", a summary of Shaykh al-Islam's work:

Shaikh ul-Islaam placed in 'Dar' ut-Ta'aarud' (6/250) an invaluable chapter which contains quotations from the Scholars of the ummah and their most senior persons (of knowledge) regarding the affirmation that Allaah is above the Throne and he quoted their words from their books by the very letters. If it were not for the fear of lengthening the affair I would have quoted it all, with its length, however I will suffice with only a portion from each book and quotation, perhaps it may accomplish what is desired.


He - may Allaah have mercy upon him - said, "The Shaikh, Abu Nasr as-Sijzee said, in the book 'al-Ibaanah', 'Our Imaams, such as Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Maalik, Sufyaan ibn 'Uyainah, Hammad bin Salamah, Hammaad bin Zaid, 'Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, Fudayl ibn 'Iyaad, Ahmad bin Hanbal, and Ishaaq bin Raahawaih are unanimously agreed that Allaah is above His Throne with His Essence (bi Dhaatihi).'


And Shaikh Abu 'Umar at-Talamankee al-Maalikee, one of the Imaams of his time in Andalus, said in his book 'al-Wusool ilaa Ma'rifatul-Usool', 'And the Muslims from Ahl us-Sunnah are agreed upon the meaning of His saying, 'And He is with you wherever you may be' [Hadeed 57:4] - and what is similar to that in the Qur'aan - that that is His knowledge, that Allaah is above the heavens, with His Essence (bi Dhaatihi), and that He ascended His Throne in the manner that He wishes.


And Shaikh Nasr ul-Maqdisee ash-Shaafi'ee said in the book 'al-Hujjah'...mentioned a summary of the creed of Ahl us-Sunnah and in it occurs, 'Verily, Allaah ascended His Throne, and is separate and distinct (baa'in) from His creation'." End of his words.

Shaikh ul-Islaam also quotes from Abu 'Umar Ibn 'Abdul-Barr, from the Shaikh and 'Aarif, Ma'mar bn Ahmad al-Asbahaanee, from Abdur-Rahmaan bin Abee Haatim, the athar of al-Awzaa'ee, from Abu Hasan al-Ash'aree and some of his major companions. He also quotes from Ibn 'Asaakir, Ibn Fawraak and Alee bin Mahdee at-Tabaree, who are the greatest of the companions of al-Ash'aree and also from al-Qurtubee the mufassir as occurs in 'Bayaan ut-Talbees' (2/332).

In fact he quotes this ijmaa' from twenty imaams from the Salaf and the Khalaf as occurs in 'Dar' ut-Ta'aarud' (1/245), including the Imaam, Ahmad bin Hanbal, Alee bin al-Madeenee, Ishaaq bin Ibraaheem, Daawood bin 'Alee, Uthmaan ad-Daarimee, Ibn Khuzaimah, Ibn Kullaab, al-Qalaanisee, al-Ash'aree, Abu Hasan at-Tabari, Abu Bakr al-Ismaa'eelee, Abu Nu'aym al-Asbahaanee, Ibn 'Abdul-Barr and others which are many in number.

All of those Imaams say that Allaah is above the Throne with ijmaa' (concensus).

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by Abdul_Karim

Stop conflating "Ash'ari" with "Sufi". Yes, most Sufis today are Ash'aris, but Sufi and Ash'ari are two different things. Imam Qurtubi (rahimahullah) was an Ash'ari, but he was never a Sufi. Shaykh al-Islam Abu Isma'il al-Harawi (rahimahullah) was the most important Sufi of his time but he hated the Ash'aris with a passion. Likewise, many of the Ash'aris were highly anti-Sufi. Sufism and Ash'arism have nothing to do with each other (although it is possible for someone to be both).

Dear brother, I know that. If you look carefully at my post, I never said that Imam al-Qurtubi (ra) was a Sufi. I always referred to him as an Ashari. I am just saying that he is important to these Sufis (hint: Sufi Forum).

[Salahadeen]

The Four Imams of the Four Madhabs on Allah Being Above the Heavens


1. Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rh) was asked, ‘Allah is above the seventh heaven, above His Throne, distinct from his creation, and His Power and Knowledge are in every place?’ And he replied, ‘Yes, above the Throne and His Knowledge is in every place’ (‘Sharh Usul I’tiqaad Ahlus Sunnah’ of al-Laalikaaee (d.414AH)).

2. Imaam Maalik (rh) said, “Allah is Above the heaven, and His knowledge is in every place, nothing is hidden from Him.” (‘Sharh Usul I’tiqaad Ahlus Sunnah’ of al-Laalikaaee (d.414AH)).

3. Abu Haneefah (rh) said, when asked of his opinion of the one who says, ‘I do not know whether Allah is above the heavens or on the earth.’ - “He has disbelieved, because Allah says, “The Most Merciful rose above the Throne,” and His Throne is above His seven heavens.’ He was then asked , ‘what if he said that Allah is above His Throne but he does not know whether the Throne is in the heavens or on the earth?’ He said, ‘He has disbelieved, because he has denied that He (Allah) is above the heavens, And whosoever denied that He is above the heavens has disbelieved.” (‘Sharh Usul I’tiqaad Ahlus Sunnah’ of al-Laalikaaee (d.414AH), ‘al-Uluww’ of adh- Dhahabee, also ‘Sharh Aqueedah at-Tahaawiyyah’ of ibn Abee al-Izz al-Hanafee)

4. Abu Haneefah said, “And Allah the Exalted is called upon upwards, and not downwards, because downwards is not a quality of Ruboobiyyah (Lordship) and Uloohiyyah (Divinity) in anything” (al-Fiqh ul-Asbat).

5. A woman asked Abu Haneefah, “Where is your Lord whom you worship” So he said, “Verily Allah the Exalted is above the sky (fis-samaa`), not in the earth.” So a man said to him, `Have you seen the statement of Allah the Exalted, “And He is with you.” (57:4) He said, “He is as you are when you write to a man, `Verily I am with you,’ whilst you are absent from him” (al-Asmaa was-Sifaat).

6. And Aboo Nu’aym relates from Ja’far Ibn ‘Abdullaah who said, `We were with Maalik Ibn Anas, so a man came, so he said, “O Abaa ‘Abdullaah, “The Most Merciful has ascended above His Throne,” (20:5) How has He ascended?’ So anger came over Maalik, such that no affair like this had ever caused to come over him. So he looked towards the earth and scratched with his cane in his hand, until he raised his hand and wiped the sweat from his forehead, tossed the cane aside, and said, ‘The modality (kayf of it cannot be comprehended by the intellect, and al-istiwaa’ (ascent) is not unknown, and having faith in it is obligatory, and the question concerning it is an innovation. And I think that you are a person of innovation,’ and he commanded him to leave.” Ibn Hajar said in Fathul Baaree (commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari) (13/406- 407) that its isnaad (chain of narrators) is hasan (good). And it was authenticated by adh-Dhahabee in al-Uluww (p. 103).

[Salahadeen]

Imam adh-Dhahabi (ra)

I close with the words of Imam adh-Dhahabi (ra). At the end of his "al-Uluww lil-‘Aliyyil-Ghaffaar", he responds to Imam al-Qurtubi...his words are enough advice for the Muslims of all ages! We read from his book...first al-Qurtubi's quote, and then Imam adh-Dhahabi's response to it:


...al-Qurtubee also said in ‘al-Asnaa’: "...In their view, direction does not have the aspect of ‘above’ to it. This is because to them, when Allaah is designated with direction, this would necessitate that He is restricted to a place (makaan) and a confine (hayyiz). (Subsequently), a place and a confine necessitate (for Him) (such) movement and stillness that is related to distinction (tamayyuz), transformation (taghayyur) and new occurrences (hudooth) . This is the saying of the philosophers."


I (adh-Dhahabee) say:

"Yes, this is what the deniers of the ‘uluww (highness) of the Lord, Mighty and Majestic, have depended upon. And they turned away from the requirement of the Book, the Sunnah, the sayings of the Salaf and the innate dispositions of the whole of creation.

What they claim to be necessitated (from affirming Allaah’s highness) is only applicable to created bodies. Yet there is nothing like Allaah and the necessities arising from the clear and evident texts (of the Book and the Sunnah) are also true.

However, we do not make use of any explanation except one that comes through a narration. In addition to this we say, ‘We do not accept that the Creator’s being upon His Throne and above the heavens, necessitates that He is confined and in spatial direction, since whatever is below the Throne is said to be confined and in spatial direction.

However, what is above the Throne is not like that. And Allaah is above the Throne as the very first generation are unanimously agreed upon and as the imaams after them have quoted from them. They said this in refutation of the Jahmiyyah, those who said that He is in every place seeking as a proof His saying, ‘And He is with you…’. So these two sayings were the very two sayings which were present in the time of the Taabi’een and their successors who came after them. And they are the two sayings that can be understood in this statement (i.e. of the philosophers).

As for the third saying which came around after this which is that’ Allaah the Most High is not in any place, nor is His Holy Essence (Dhaat) confined, nor is He separate and distinct from His creation, nor is he in any spatial direction, nor is outside of any spatial directions, and nor this and nor that…’ then this is something that cannot be comprehended nor understood, along with the fact that within it is opposition to the verses (of the Book) and the narrations (from the Salaf).

Therefore flee with your religion and beware of the opinions of the philosophers. Believe in Allaah and what has come from Him upon the desired intent of Allaah, then submit your affair to Him and there is no power nor movement except by Allaah.

The book is completed and all praise is to Allaah alone…"

End of quote from adh-Dhahabee.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

This world and the heavens are all creation. Allah's essence exists outside and above all of that. So whatever the boundaries of creation are--which includes the earth and the heavens--then Allah's Essence is above all of that.

Yeh, so like, in modern science the idea that our universe doesn't exist in space, but actually is space, which doesn't exist outside of our universe - then maybe Allah could exist outside of that.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh, so like, in modern science the idea that our universe doesn't exist in space, but actually is space, which doesn't exist outside of our universe - then maybe Allah could exist outside of that.

Sorry, I really don't understand what you mean. I just don't want to agree to something I'm not exactly sure as to what you mean.