[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

Whoever asks such questions like 'Where is Allah' doesn't seek anything but Fitnah,

..."He (the Prophet) asked her, ‘Where is Allah?’" (Muslim, Abu Dawud, and others).

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

..."He (the Prophet) asked her, ‘Where is Allah?’" (Muslim, Abu Dawud, and others).

lol, I knew you would ask this question and I was about to answer this question before you have asked but I didn't, don't know why, well the answer is simple, bro.
He was the Prophet s.a.w, he could ask questions to his people in order to teach him, because he 'knew' the answers, he used to communicate to Allah himself, but you, me and us can't do that, we don't know the 'exact' answers to such controversial questions, if we did, we wouldn't be arguing with each other on this subject. Allah tells the signs of Fitnah seekers in Quran that they interpret allegorical verses, I think it's worse when people try to 'interpret' allegorical hadiths.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

lol, I knew you would ask this question and I was about to answer this question before you have asked but I didn't, don't know why, well the answer is simple, bro.
He was the Prophet s.a.w, he could ask questions to his people in order to teach him, because he 'knew' the answers, he used to communicate to Allah himself, but you, me and us can't do that, we don't know the 'exact' answers to such controversial questions, if we did, we wouldn't be arguing with each other on this subject. Allah tells the signs of Fitnah seekers in Quran that they interpret allegorical verses, I think it's worse when people try to 'interpret' allegorical hadiths.

Dear brother,

We do not agree that this is "allegorical". When the Prophet (s) asked "who am I", was this "allegorical"? The slave girl (ra) was a layperson and yet she knew the answer to "where is Allah" and pointed up, and the Prophet (s) did not chastise her for that. You say that the laypersons should not be discussing this, but obviously the Prophet of Allah (s) disagreed with you, since he (s) asked a layperson.

In any case, I am waiting for brother Jinnzaman to answer my questions.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

Dear brother,

We do not agree that this is "allegorical". When the Prophet (s) asked "who am I", was this "allegorical"? The slave girl (ra) was a layperson and yet she knew the answer to "where is Allah" and pointed up, and the Prophet (s) did not chastise her for that. You say that the laypersons should not be discussing this, but obviously the Prophet of Allah (s) disagreed with you, since he (s) asked a layperson.

In any case, I am waiting for brother Jinnzaman to answer my questions.

Of course the hadith we are talking about is 'allegorical' and not clear, this is coming to us through a chain of narration, we didn't hear this from the Prophet s.a.w himself, then we don't have 'all details' of this event. If this hadith was clear, people would agree on 'it's message'. This hadith is simply used by different schools of thoughts to serve their purpose. This matter about 'Where Allah is' is quite serious, we shouldn't discuss this matter based upon 'allegorical hadiths' but we should stick to Quran only at least in this regard. Otherwise we will only be spreading fitnah, sectarianism and hatred among the ummah, which I see lots of us love in the name of madhabs and schools of thoughts.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

Dear brother Jinnzaman,

If the Prophet (s) were to ask you "where is Allah", how would you respond to that question?

It feels, dear brother, that our Sufi Ashari brothers would chastise the Prophet (s) for asking such a "blasphemous" question, and that they would "explain" to the Prophet (s) using words such as "spatial", "temporal", "ontological", "historicity", etc.

So my dear brother, how would you answer the question "where is Allah?"

Forgive me for my aggressiveness in asking this question, but really, it is something that we should think about. Would you, dear brother, explain to the Prophet (s) that "nothing is like Allah" and therefore asking such a question would involve creating spatial and temporal restrictions on Allah?

Or perhaps you would mock the Prophet (s) like this:

You're presenting Islamic theology from an extremely myopic view. Again, I would like to remind you that a verse of the Qur'an that is clear and unambiguous is given a higher grading in hermeneutics than a verse that is unclear or ambiguous or a hadeeth that is ambiguous. Laysa ka mithlihi shay has never been interpreted by any of the Salaf or the Khalaf to be anything but a clear and unambiguous text. Therefore, all other texts are subjected to it rather than it being subjected to other texts.

I am deliberately not engaging in these kalam arguments not because I am not capable, but because they are a waste of time. The arguments you are bringing forth are nothing new. They have been asked and answered. I can give you a list of books or scholars who deal with these issues and can provide more than adequate refutations.

However, that is besides the point. Why should we engage in refutations of one another when both paths are legitimate? I have respect for the manhaj of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah because that is what my teachers taught me. However, they also taught me that there are alternative interpretations of these texts and constantly claiming that there is only one interpretation of them is patently false; there are a multiplicity of interpretations. You may not agree with them, but you are not an Imam Ghazzali nor an Imam Tahawi nor am Imam Nasafi nor a Shah Waliullah. The giants of our Ummah who had attained masteries in the most difficult sciences and, with great humility, were recognized as being mujtahids by their contemporaries and subsequent 'Ulema, adhered to a school of Kalam or at least recognized it as being legitimate.

There are a plethora of 'Ulema that disagree with you. So you follow the manhaj of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. Thats fine, but there is also Shaykh Ibn Hajr Asqalani who is equally authoritative. If you want to quote Shaykh al-Barbahari, thats fine, but there is also Imam Nawawi. If you want to quote Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, thats fine, but there is also his teacher, Shaykh Muhammad Hayat al Sindhi. If you want to quote Imam Ahmad, thats fine, but there is also Imam Abu Hanifah.

With all due respect, it is absolute hubris to think that a teenager who is probably getting most of his 'ilm from internet forums or derisive websites can even be in a position to make judgments in matters that mujtahids for almost a thousand years have engaged in.

[rahat]

haha you know i have to say, this thread is crazy - but mr sallahudeen is very polite!

-
rahat

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

You're presenting Islamic theology from an extremely myopic view. Again, I would like to remind you that a verse of the Qur'an that is clear and unambiguous is given a higher grading in hermeneutics than a verse that is unclear or ambiguous or a hadeeth that is ambiguous. Laysa ka mithlihi shay has never been interpreted by any of the Salaf or the Khalaf to be anything but a clear and unambiguous text. Therefore, all other texts are subjected to it rather than it being subjected to other texts.

I am deliberately not engaging in these kalam arguments not because I am not capable, but because they are a waste of time. The arguments you are bringing forth are nothing new. They have been asked and answered. I can give you a list of books or scholars who deal with these issues and can provide more than adequate refutations.

However, that is besides the point. Why should we engage in refutations of one another when both paths are legitimate? I have respect for the manhaj of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah because that is what my teachers taught me. However, they also taught me that there are alternative interpretations of these texts and constantly claiming that there is only one interpretation of them is patently false; there are a multiplicity of interpretations. You may not agree with them, but you are not an Imam Ghazzali nor an Imam Tahawi nor am Imam Nasafi nor a Shah Waliullah. The giants of our Ummah who had attained masteries in the most difficult sciences and, with great humility, were recognized as being mujtahids by their contemporaries and subsequent 'Ulema, adhered to a school of Kalam or at least recognized it as being legitimate.

There are a plethora of 'Ulema that disagree with you. So you follow the manhaj of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. Thats fine, but there is also Shaykh Ibn Hajr Asqalani who is equally authoritative. If you want to quote Shaykh al-Barbahari, thats fine, but there is also Imam Nawawi. If you want to quote Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, thats fine, but there is also his teacher, Shaykh Muhammad Hayat al Sindhi. If you want to quote Imam Ahmad, thats fine, but there is also Imam Abu Hanifah.

With all due respect, it is absolute hubris to think that a teenager who is probably getting most of his 'ilm from internet forums or derisive websites can even be in a position to make judgments in matters that mujtahids for almost a thousand years have engaged in.

Dear brother Jinnzaman,

I will insha-Allah answer all of your arguments. But before I do, I really want you to answer the following questions:

1) How would you answer the Prophet's question "where is Allah?"

2) Can you explain why the Prophet (s) even asked the question "where is Allah" if Allah has no "where-ness" as you say?

You have stated that there are books and books which have been written on this topic, so surely you can give us the answer, dear brother.

May Allah reward you.

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

Whoever asks such questions like 'Where is Allah' doesn't seek anything but Fitnah, this is becuase they are controversial subjects, they shouldn't at all be discussed, specially when we have laymen around.

This is not a controversial subject, this is backed by the quran and sunnah, it is the asharis who have brought in the belief of the greeks which cannot be back up by quran and sunnah. So one side has quran and sunnah, and the other side has non muslim, greek philosophers, where is the controversey? I thought we were muslims and we should follow the quran and sunnah?

AGAIN these peeple are on something that the sahaba were not on, I ASK THIS QUESTION, DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU KNOW AND UDNERSTAND ISLAM BETTER THAN THE SAHABA?

subhanALLAH the people who claim to be ahlul sunnah have the same aqeedah with those who curse the sahaba, ahlul sunnah? i think not.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

Dear brother Jinnzaman,

I will insha-Allah answer all of your arguments. But before I do, I really want you to answer the following questions:

1) How would you answer the Prophet's question "where is Allah?"

2) Can you explain why the Prophet (s) even asked the question "where is Allah" if Allah has no "where-ness" as you say?

You have stated that there are books and books which have been written on this topic, so surely you can give us the answer, dear brother.

May Allah reward you.

My answer to these questions is the same as Imam Nawawis.

[the_only_one]

salamz,

the stuff you guys are talking about is hard-core ambigious non-digestable material that flies over people's head. just out of curiosity, are laymens allow to discuss stuff like that?

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by the_only_one

are laymens allow to discuss stuff like that?

No.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by the_only_one

salamz,

the stuff you guys are talking about is hard-core ambigious non-digestable material that flies over people's head. just out of curiosity, are laymens allow to discuss stuff like that?

Originally Posted by Timbit

No.

Yes, we are only allowed to talk about who is hot and who is not, Imran Khan's beautiful eyes, etc.

Just joking, dear sister. Don't take offense insha-Allah. Just a light-hearted joke.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

My answer to these questions is the same as Imam Nawawis.

Brother Jinnzaman, Imam an-Nawawi said:

...the Prophet intended to test her: was she a believer in oneness (muwahhida) who confirms that the Creator, Disposer, and Doer is Allah alone? that He it is Who, when the petitioner invokes Him, he turns towards the heaven, and when the worshipper prays, he turns towards the Ka`ba? -- and this is not because He is circumscribed in the heaven, just as this is not because He is circumscribed in the direction of the Ka`ba; rather this is because the heaven is the orientation of those who invoke, just as the Ka`ba is the orientation of those who pray -- or, on the other hand, was she of the idol-worshippers who worship the idols that are in front of them? When she replied: 'In heaven,' it was understood that she was a believer in oneness and not an idol-worshipper.

But unfortunately that does not answer my two questions. Here they are again, dear brother:

1) How would you answer the Prophet's question "where is Allah?"

2) Can you explain why the Prophet (s) even asked the question "where is Allah" if Allah has no "where-ness" as you say?

[Timbit]

Talk about it by all means. I'm reading it and it's interesting.
Just I don't think you're allowed to debate it and that's what you seem to be trying to do here.

Nobody mentioned his eyes though.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Allah swt exists in the beginning and he exists when he destroys everything

Is Allah swt 'above' when he's destroyed the universe ?

Since he exists outside of time where is the part of him *now* which is existing during the non-existence of the universe ?

Be careful with Kalam

[the_only_one]

Thanks Brother Salahudeen, I am slightly amused by your light hearted joke.

One laymenish word I would like to toss around is, as mentioned by the brother:

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE