[AbuAlAbbas]

The 3uloo of ALLAH SWT is FITRA, even those who believe ALLAH SWT is everywhere, when they make dua they raise their hands and look up.

Either way, the Quran and Sunnah, and the sahaba back up that ALLAH SWT is above the heavens.

The others on the other hand, those who are known as ahl ul kalam can back their points up from the greek philosophers subhanALLAH.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

Dear brother, if someone walks on the earth, is he above the earth or below it? If a man is in India, do we say that he is above the earth or below it? Surely we say that he is above/on the earth, i.e. the earth is below him. And a man who walks on the earth in America...is he above/on the earth, or is he below it? Surely he too is above the earth! So we see that no matter where anyone is on the earth, he is above it. And likewise the heavens--no matter where one is on earth--is above the earth.

But I do understand what you are trying to say about a space station...but this is delving into the matter more than is necessary...we only insist upon the 'where-ness' of Allah because the Prophet (s) specifically mentioned it...we don't go beyond this...having said that, I have heard that Allah encompasses the creation. Maybe another Salafi brother can answer your question insha-Allah.

One cannot understand the Creator by the created. Allah is known by definition, not by how the creation operates.

The clear and unambiguous mutawattir text that is the governing principle is: laysa ka mithlihi shay.

Everything else is deemed ambiguous and subverted beneath this text.

Dimensions are an attribute of created thing since they apply spatial and temporal limitations, and Allah is the creator of these things.

Thats an alternative perspective.

[Kadhim]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Is ALLAH SWT in places that are najis? ex. bathrooms, strip clubs etc...?

Why would He be absent from any place?

[Kadhim]

I want to clarify a few terms that have been misused above.

Pantheism: Means that the universe is God identically. I.e.., the universe is all that exists, and in reality, it is just God.

Panentheism: The Universe is God, but it is not the entirety of God. God is greater than the universe, but it is part of Him.

Neither of these two are implied by the claim that "God is everywhere" or that "God is beyond time and space."

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by Kadhim

Why would He be absent from any place?

Please give a straight answer.
So it is in your aqeedah that ALLAH SWT is in the bathroom wal iyathoo billah, when you are doing what people do in the bathroom? Is it ok to pray in the bathroom?

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Please give a straight answer.
So it is in your aqeedah that ALLAH SWT is in the bathroom wal iyathoo billah, when you are doing what people do in the bathroom? Is it ok to pray in the bathroom?

What is the difference between saying He is in the bathroom or is He above or below an object that He Himself created? The two do not befit the majesty of Allah who does not have jism.

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

What is the difference between saying He is in the bathroom or is He above or below an object that He Himself created? The two do not befit the majesty of Allah who does not have jism.

One difference is that ALLAH SWT says that he is above his throne, yet others deny what ALLAH SWT described for himself.

Ahlul sunnah wal jamma believe that Allah SWT is not a jism, nor do we go beyond the boundaries and ascribe things to ALLAH SWT that he did not ascribe to himself. As imam malik, an imam of ahlul sunnah stated, the ascending we affirm and we know, but the how is something we are ignorant about.

ALLAH SWT sees and hears everything, but he is not all around us, why? in the quran how many times does it state that ALLAH SWT ascended above his throne? the ahadeeth, what do they back up?

when the slave girl pointed up when muhammad SAW asked her where ALLAH SWT was he declared her a muslimah. Two things can be benifited from that, one is that ALLAH SWT has a place or else why would muhammad SAW ask where ALLAH SWT was? The second point is that he is above the heavens, as the muslimah pointed to the sky. EXPLAIN THIS HADEETH TO ME.

This ideology that ALLAH SWT has no place, because if he did he wouldnt be somewhere etc... is that of the greek philosphers. Leave anything that does not abide by the quran and sunnah to the side, do not follow it, it is best for you.

follow the haqq.

[Kadhim]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Please give a straight answer.
So it is in your aqeedah that ALLAH SWT is in the bathroom wal iyathoo billah, when you are doing what people do in the bathroom? Is it ok to pray in the bathroom?

In the bathroom I do what God designed me to do. Najasat is a physical state of uncleanness. God is not physical. Our need for taharat for prayer is a requirement of physical cleanliness and hygiene in our lives. It doesn't mean that God retreats in horror from any place where there is najasat. Najasat is not an evil; it is simply a state of physical uncleanness.

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by Kadhim

In the bathroom I do what God designed me to do. Najasat is a physical state of uncleanness. God is not physical. Our need for taharat for prayer is a requirement of physical cleanliness and hygiene in our lives. It doesn't mean that God retreats in horror from any place where there is najasat. Najasat is not an evil; it is simply a state of physical uncleanness.

Why dont you simply answer the question without your philosophical run around

1. Is ALLAH SWT in the bathroom?

2. Can you pray in the bathroom?

[Kadhim]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

One difference is that ALLAH SWT says that he is above his throne, yet others deny what ALLAH SWT described for himself.

What is this throne? What does throne denote? Is "above" (a'laa) in this context a relationship of physical elevation, or some other form of elevation? Literal or physical?
"Some of these verses are literal ... others are figurative."

Ahlul sunnah wal jamma believe that Allah SWT is not a jism, nor do we go beyond the boundaries and ascribe things to ALLAH SWT that he did not ascribe to himself. As imam malik, an imam of ahlul sunnah stated, the ascending we affirm and we know, but the how is something we are ignorant about.

What is the form of this ascent? Is this a physical movement from one location to another? Or is is representative of something else? Literal or figurative?

ALLAH SWT sees and hears everything, but he is not all around us, why? in the quran how many times does it state that ALLAH SWT ascended above his throne? the ahadeeth, what do they back up?

Well, please quote some examples of a language of "ascent" being used.

when the slave girl pointed up when muhammad SAW asked her where ALLAH SWT was he declared her a muslimah. Two things can be benifited from that, one is that ALLAH SWT has a place or else why would muhammad SAW ask where ALLAH SWT was? The second point is that he is above the heavens, as the muslimah pointed to the sky. EXPLAIN THIS HADEETH TO ME.

He was humoring her simplicity and sincerity. That was as well as she could understand it with her intellect, and so he left her to it.

This ideology that ALLAH SWT has no place, because if he did he wouldnt be somewhere etc... is that of the greek philosphers. Leave anything that does not abide by the quran and sunnah to the side, do not follow it, it is best for you.

follow the haqq.

This is the thing. The Qu'ran doesn't support the notion of God having a place.

[Kadhim]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Why dont you simply answer the question without your philosophical run around

1. Is ALLAH SWT in the bathroom?

2. Can you pray in the bathroom?

The answers to both are within my earlier response, as is the explanation of why najasat has no bearing on whether God can be present in a place.

[AbuAlAbbas]

He was humoring her simplicity and sincerity. That was as well as she could understand it with her intellect, and so he left her to it.

subhanALLAH so muhammad SAW was sent down to humor people? or was he sent down to guide people?

Thats all her intellect can handle? so he left her to it? Is this a joke? are we talking about a prohpet here?

And where is this tafseer coming from? this deen is a joke to you apparently.

Originally Posted by Kadhim

The answers to both are within my earlier response, as is the explanation of why najasat has no bearing on whether God can be present in a place.

Im sorry I couldnt understand the philosphical jibberish that your wrote, i need straight answers

1. Is ALLAH SWT in the bathroom?

2. Can you pray in the bathroom?

[AbuAlAbbas]

This is the thing. The Qu'ran doesn't support the notion of God having a place.

Proof from Quran

1. And (remember) when Allâh said: “O ‘Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that ‘Iesa (Jesus) is Allâh’s son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.” (3:55)

2. And He is the Irresistible, above (fawq) His slaves, and He is the All-Wise, Well¬Acquainted with all things. (6:18)
   
   
3. They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded. (16:50)
   
   
4. Whosoever desires honour, power and glory then to Allâh belong all honour, power and glory. To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it, but those who plot evils, theirs will be severe torment. And the plotting of such will perish. (35:10)
   
   
5. From Allâh, the Lord of the ways of ascent. The angels and the Rûh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years (70:3-4)
   
   
6. Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)? (67:16)
   
   
7. Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning? (67:17)
   
   
8. Say (O Muhammad ??? ???? ???? ????) Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allâh as Muslims). (16:102)
   
   
9. Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High (87:1)

go ahead deny what ALLAH SWT described for himself.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by Kadhim

I want to clarify a few terms that have been misused above.

Pantheism: Means that the universe is God identically. I.e.., the universe is all that exists, and in reality, it is just God.

Panentheism: The Universe is God, but it is not the entirety of God. God is greater than the universe, but it is part of Him.

Neither of these two are implied by the claim that "God is everywhere" or that "God is beyond time and space."

Dear Kadhim,

These words were not misused by anyone here. I simply stated that the idea that "God is everywhere" comes from pantheism, which it does.

Pantheism.net says: "God is everywhere and in all of us." (source: http://www.pantheist.net/society/what_pantheism_means_to_me.html)

Having said that, dear Kadhim, I kindly ask you not to post in this thread, and the reason I ask this of you is that you are a Shi`a and you do not accept our ahadeeth as a proof; therefore debate with you is like debating with the "Quraniyyoon". Please do not be offended by this, but as you can see, a great proof lies in the Prophet's question of "where is Allah", and I'm not sure that Shi`as accept this hadeeth to begin with, so debate on this topic is useless with you.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

One cannot understand the Creator by the created. Allah is known by definition, not by how the creation operates.

The clear and unambiguous mutawattir text that is the governing principle is: laysa ka mithlihi shay.

Everything else is deemed ambiguous and subverted beneath this text.

Dimensions are an attribute of created thing since they apply spatial and temporal limitations, and Allah is the creator of these things.

Thats an alternative perspective.

Dear brother Jinnzaman,

If the Prophet (s) were to ask you "where is Allah", how would you respond to that question?

It feels, dear brother, that our Sufi Ashari brothers would chastise the Prophet (s) for asking such a "blasphemous" question, and that they would "explain" to the Prophet (s) using words such as "spatial", "temporal", "ontological", "historicity", etc.

So my dear brother, how would you answer the question "where is Allah?"

Forgive me for my aggressiveness in asking this question, but really, it is something that we should think about. Would you, dear brother, explain to the Prophet (s) that "nothing is like Allah" and therefore asking such a question would involve creating spatial and temporal restrictions on Allah?

Or perhaps you would mock the Prophet (s) like this:

Originally Posted by Kadhim

He was humoring her simplicity and sincerity. That was as well as she could understand it with her intellect, and so he left her to it.

The problem with what our colleague Kadhim has said is that it was the Prophet (s) who initiated the conversation, not the slave girl (ra). It was the Prophet (s) who asked "where is Allah", so if anyone was "humoring" anyone, then it would have to be the slave girl who was "humoring" the "simplicity" of the Prophet (s) for even asking such a question! (We seek Allah's refuge!)

Would you, dear brother Jinnzaman, laugh at the Prophet's utter "simplicity and simple-mindedness" (we seek refuge from Allah)? Would you explain to the Prophet (s) with a bunch of metaphysics and Aristotelean terms why his question cannot be answered?

As for me, dear brother, I would point upwards!

Dear brother, the problem is that the Prophet (s) himself asked "where is Allah"...how could the Prophet (s) ask this if Allah Almighty had no "where-ness"?

We Salafis say that Allah Almighty is distinct from his creation, separate from the creation and above the creation, yet you say we are saying that Allah is like creation! We say that Allah is distinct and separate from creation and yet you say we are saying that Allah is like the creation!

You say that "where-ness" denotes likening to creation (which is strange since the Prophet is the one who asked this), yet do you realize that 'humans exist', so does this mean that God does not exist, since--according to you--God is unlike creation? Is this not what the atheists say!? So we say that God has an existence befitting His Majesty, and that He has a where-ness befitting His Majesty. If you say that God is different and therefore God has no where-ness, this is the same as saying God has no existence.

Unlucky for us simpleton Salafis, the Prophet (s) is no longer alive to defend himself when he asked the question "where is Allah"...

I end up with asking my dear brother Jinnzaman to answer this:

1) How would you answer the Prophet's question "where is Allah?"

2) Can you explain why the Prophet (s) even asked the question "where is Allah" if Allah has no "where-ness" as you say?

I apologize for my aggressiveness. May Allah reward you, dear brother.