Salafi asks: Where is Allah? How do you answer?

[Salahadeen]

Muslims should know the answer to this question:

"Where is Allah?"

The correct answer is: "Above the heavens."

Two common incorrect answers are:

1) "Allah is everywhere", which comes from pantheism, an ideology which says that the Creator and the creation are one. This is shirk (and kufr) because it is equating Allah and the creation.

2) "Allah is not above the heavens." This is rejecting the Quran and the Hadeeths.

Proof from Quran

1. And (remember) when Allâh said: “O ‘Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that ‘Iesa (Jesus) is Allâh’s son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.” (3:55)
   
   
2. And He is the Irresistible, above (fawq) His slaves, and He is the All-Wise, Well¬Acquainted with all things. (6:18)
   
   
3. They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded. (16:50)
   
   
4. Whosoever desires honour, power and glory then to Allâh belong all honour, power and glory. To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it, but those who plot evils, theirs will be severe torment. And the plotting of such will perish. (35:10)
   
   
5. From Allâh, the Lord of the ways of ascent. The angels and the Rûh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years (70:3-4)
   
   
6. Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)? (67:16)
   
   
7. Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning? (67:17)
   
   
8. Say (O Muhammad ??? ???? ???? ????) Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Qur’an) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allâh as Muslims). (16:102)
   
   
9. Glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most High (87:1)

These ayaat clearly indicate that Allah is the Creator, and we are the creation. The two are separate and distinct, and not the same.

Additionally, these ayaat show that Allah is the All-Knower of everything, and disposes of all affairs. His being over the Throne does not negate this. Notice how they say, for example, “They fear their Lord above them” and they do not say, “They fear their Lord beneath them,” or “around them,” or “inside them,” or “the One in no direction.”

It is therefore clear from the repetition of this in the Qur’an that this is an important issue. In fact, it is the message that the Prophets all came with.


Proof From Hadeeth

1. It is narrated from Abu Hurairah (ra) that the Messenger of Allah said, “Two groups of angels come to you, one group in the night and one group in the day, they gather at the times of Fajr and Asr. The ones who spent the night rise to Allah and Allah asks them whilst he knows fully aware, “How did you leave my slaves.” The angels reply, “They were praying when we reached them and they were still praying when we left them.” (Humaam ibn Munabeh in ‘Saheehfah as-Saadiqah’ (p.89), Ahmad in his ‘Musnad’, Ibn Khuzaimah in ‘Kitaab at-Tawheed’ (p.78) Uthmaan Daarimee in ‘Radd Alal-Jahmiyyah’ (p.30))
   
   
2. Imaam adh-Dhahabee (rh) narrates from Abu Hurairah (ra), the Messenger of Allah said that Allah will say, “For the reason of my might, where are the people who love each other, today I will give them the shade of my Throne. Where there is no shade apart from my shade” (Hadeeth Mutawaatir). This establishes that the Throne is in fact real, and not something ‘metaphorical.’
   
   
3. Abdullah bin Amr reported that the Prophet said: “Be merciful to those on earth, so that the One above the heavens will be merciful to you” (Bukhari/Muslim).
   
   
4. Zaynab (ra), the wife of the Prophet, used to claim excellence over the rest of his wives by telling them, “It is only your parents who gave you in marriage to the Prophet , while it is Allah Who gave me in marriage to him from above the seven heavens” (Bukhari).
   
   
5. Narrated Abu Huraira, “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, Allah divided Mercy into one-hundred parts and He kept its ninety-nine parts with Him and sent down its one part on the earth, and because of that, its one single part, His creations are Merciful to each other, so that even the mare lifts up its hoofs away from its baby animal, lest it should trample on it” (Bukhari).
   
   
6. Jabir ibn Abdullah said, “The Messenger of Allah said in his speech on the day of Arafah, ‘Did I convey (the message)?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ While raising his finger to the sky and then pointing at them, he said, ‘O my Lord, be a witness.’” [Muslim]
   
   
7. Abu Sa’eed said that the Messenger of Allah said, “Do you not trust me when I am trusted by Him Who is above the heavens? Revelation comes to me day and night.” (Bukhari/Muslim)
   
   
8. Abu Musa al-Ash’ari narrated that the Messenger said, “Allah does not sleep and he ought not to. He descends the Qist (justice) and raises it up. Deeds of the night are ascended to Him before the day. His veil is Light, if He unveils it, the light of His Face will burn everything that sight reaches” (Muslim).
   
   
9. ‘Abdullah. Ibn ‘Abbas reported: A person from the Ansar who was amongst the Companions of Allah’s Messenger reported to me: As we were sitting during the night with Allah’s Messenger , a falling star gave a dazzling light. Allah’s Messenger said: What did you say in the pre-Islamic days when there was such a shot (of meteor)? They said: Allah and His Messenger know best (the actual position), but we, however, used to say that that very night a great man had been born and a great man had died, whereupon Allah’s Messenger said: (These falling stars) are shot neither at the death of anyone nor on the birth of anyone. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, issues Command when He decides to do a thing. Then (the Angels) supporting the Throne sing His glory, then sing the dwellers of heaven who are near to them until this glory of God reaches them who are in the heaven of this world. Then those who are near the supporters of the Throne ask these supporters of the Throne: What your Lord has said? And they accordingly inform them what He says. Then the dwellers of heaven seek information from them until this information reaches the heaven of the world. In this process of transmission (the jinn snatches) what he manages to overhear and he carries it to his friends. And when the Angels see the jinn they attack them with meteors. If they narrate only which they manage to snatch that is correct but they alloy it with lies and make additions to it (Muslim).
   
   
10. Narrated Salman al-Farsi: The Prophet said: Your Lord is munificent and generous, and is shy to turn away empty the hands of His servant when he raises them to Him (Abu Dawud).
    
    
11. Mu’awiyah as-Sahmi reported: “I had some sheep which I kept between Uhud and Juwaniyyah with a slave-girl to look after them. One day, I went out to check on my sheep and discovered that a wolf had devoured one of them. Since I am just a human, (I became angry) and struck the girl. Later on, I came to the Prophet and reported to him the incident. He terrified me with the gravity of my action. I said, ‘Messenger of Allah!’ Shall I free her (as an expiation of my sin.) He said ‘Call her over.’ When I did, he asked her, ‘Where is Allah?’ She said, ‘Above the heavens.’ Then he asked her, ‘Who am I?’ She said, ‘The Messenger of Allah. Thereupon, the Messenger of Allah ordered me, ‘Free her. She is a believer’” (Muslim, Abu Dawud, and others).

It is important to remember that whatever the Prophet said about the religion is the truth. Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, Your companion has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration (revelation) that is inspired (revealed). (53:2-4)

The last hadith listed here is the most important. It establishes the validity and importance of not only asking the question where is Allah, but more importantly, the correct answer to it. To give any answer other than this is to oppose the Sunnah. It also shows that the Prophet established that the girl was a ‘true believer’ based simply on her answer to these questions. This is because it establishes beyond a shadow of a doubt that her conception of tawheed was correct, and in opposition to the tawheed of the Arabs of jahiliyyah.

There is another narration of a similar hadith, except the girl was unable to speak. So when he asked her where is Allah, she pointed at the heavens, and when he asked, ‘Who am I?’ she pointed at the heavens and pointed at him, indicating you are the one sent by Him.

[Salahadeen]

I have seen many rebuttals to the last hadeeth, and they are all refuted by the fact that the Prophet (s) HIMSELF asks "where is Allah"...therefore, if Allah had no 'where-ness', then why did the Prophet (s) ask WHERE is Allah?

[Kadhim]

Whereness implies where-not-ness, which implies physical limits, which implies a refutation of the limitlessness of God. If you place God in a specific physical location, you repeat the same errors of the ancient Greeks. "Everywhere you turn, there is the face of God." "I am closer to you than your jugular vein," etc., demonstrate the falseness of claims that God is up in the skies somewhere, or out in space.
A'laa in this sense is not a relation of physical position or height; it is a denotation of rank. God is greater than heaven; in this sense, he is above it.

These are my first and only comments on this. I'm not going to engage in detailed debate with a literalist over the most figurative text around.

[fighter007]

allah is above the seven heavens on his arsh, is that correct answer ?

[AbuAlAbbas]

Whereness implies where-not-ness, which implies physical limits, which implies a refutation of the limitlessness of God. If you place God in a specific physical location, you repeat the same errors of the ancient Greeks.

Is ALLAH SWT in places that are najis? ex. bathrooms, strip clubs etc...?

[ChotooMotoo]

AbuAlAbbas said

Is ALLAH SWT in places that are najis? ex. bathrooms, strip clubs etc...?

How did you go from what he said to the above comment?

Honestly, I've never understood the idea of Allah (swt) occupying a specific physicality, as Allah (swt) is not, to my understanding, anything we can comprehend as a physical being.

To me, everything in the first posts points to Allah (swt) being far above any human concept, yet still existing. The sky is vast, pointing to the heavens would seem to me to be an indication that Allah (swt) existance is as vast as the sky. The common Christian and Jewish belief at the time was that God was to be found in Churches, so one has to pray in churches (this is especially true of Jews who speak in the old testament of God visiting their temple in Jerusalem), Islam erased that idea. Allah (swt) is not found only in the Masjid, and since Prophet Muhammad (saw) prayed in places other than the Masjid, including the great outdoors, I think his example shows the non-locality of Allah (swt) compared to the Christian and Jewish concepts of the time.

[PeZZ]

Kadhim said

Whereness implies where-not-ness, which implies physical limits, which implies a refutation of the limitlessness of God. If you place God in a specific physical location, you repeat the same errors of the ancient Greeks. "Everywhere you turn, there is the face of God." "I am closer to you than your jugular vein," etc., demonstrate the falseness of claims that God is up in the skies somewhere, or out in space.
A'laa in this sense is not a relation of physical position or height; it is a denotation of rank. God is greater than heaven; in this sense, he is above it.

These are my first and only comments on this. I'm not going to engage in detailed debate with a literalist over the most figurative text around.

Yeah... I like how you used the Qur'an and Hadeeths to prove your point. Right on.

[Salahadeen]

fighter007 said

allah is above the seven heavens on his arsh, is that correct answer ?

Yes, that is the correct answer. Masha-Allah. I think, however, we should say Allah is *above* his arsh, not on his arsh, but I may be nitpicking on that, wallahu Aalim.

AbuAlAbbas said

Is ALLAH SWT in places that are najis? ex. bathrooms, strip clubs etc...?

This is an excellent point, dear brother. This is what the pantheists are insinuating.

ChotooMotoo said

Honestly, I've never understood the idea of Allah (swt) occupying a specific physicality, as Allah (swt) is not, to my understanding, anything we can comprehend as a physical being.

To me, everything in the first posts points to Allah (swt) being far above any human concept, yet still existing. The sky is vast, pointing to the heavens would seem to me to be an indication that Allah (swt) existance is as vast as the sky. The common Christian and Jewish belief at the time was that God was to be found in Churches, so one has to pray in churches (this is especially true of Jews who speak in the old testament of God visiting their temple in Jerusalem), Islam erased that idea. Allah (swt) is not found only in the Masjid, and since Prophet Muhammad (saw) prayed in places other than the Masjid, including the great outdoors, I think his example shows the non-locality of Allah (swt) compared to the Christian and Jewish concepts of the time.

Dear sister, the Prophet (s) asked "WHERE is Allah?" It was he himself who asked this, and so therefore to say that Allah has no "where-ness" is calling the Prophet (s) a liar. To deny the where-ness of Allah is to deny the existence of Allah. I hope you understand the dangerousness of this belief, dear sister. When we ask: "Where is Allah?" Either you can say:

1. Allah is everywhere. (pantheistic belief, equating creation with Creator)

2. Allah is nowhere. (Disbelief in Allah, a negation of Allah...this is what the atheists say!)

3. Allah has a "where", which is distinct from his creation, separated from His creation, above them and distinct from them.

There are no other possibilities (!!!).

As for terms such as "physicality", then this is a non-Shara'i term, and therefore we do not accept or reject it, but instead we inquire as to what is meant by it.

Typically, the Ashari argument is that Allah cannot exist in time and space. What is interesting though is that neither the philosophers nor the Asharis have managed to agree on a definition for time and space. How can they then negate from Allah that which they do not know?

For us, if you mean by the space, that which exists in the creation itself, then Allah is not contained in space. Allah is not composed of "matter", if that is what you mean by "space."

If you mean by space, the location beyond the creation, where nothing of the creation exists--which is distinct from "matter"-- then yes, we do affirm that Allah is there. You can call it, place, location, or whatever, so long as we affirm that Allah is beyond His creation.

We should stick to what the Prophet (s) taught us, which was that where Allah is above the heavens.

[MossadConspiracy]

salam

i understand what you're saying

but just one quick point that you have to think about is this. If you are saying that Allah occupies a place seperate from the created universe, then thats fine. I agree with you. I understand theres some kind of controversy about this and you're arguing the position you agree with.

If you're saying that Allah was located at a point above the prophet's (saw) head when he pointed up to the sky in the hadith that you mentioned, and Allah is always in this point, then you have to understand that for the people on the other side of the earth at the point when rasullulah pointed his finger upwards, Allah would be located beneath their feet, through the earth, through the feet of the prophet, through the prophet's raised finger, beyond the sky that he was pointing at, beyond outer space, etc. Thats why I think it makes more sense to suggest that there was a metaphorical component to it. The only way for Allah to be located above every person in the world at any one moment is if His form is spherical and encircles the entire universe. And as far as I know, salafis do not believe in anything like this and neither do any other muslims. In fact I remember salafis having a very heated argument with people about whether Allah's throne is an actual throne that he sits on or just a metaphorical one.

ws

[Salahadeen]

MossadConspiracy said

salam

i understand what you're saying

but just one quick point that you have to think about is this. If you are saying that Allah occupies a place seperate from the created universe, then thats fine. I agree with you. I understand theres some kind of controversy about this and you're arguing the position you agree with.

If you're saying that Allah was located at a point above the prophet's (saw) head when he pointed up to the sky in the hadith that you mentioned, and Allah is always in this point, then you have to understand that for the people on the other side of the earth at the point when rasullulah pointed his finger upwards, Allah would be located beneath their feet, through the earth, through the feet of the prophet, through the prophet's raised finger, beyond the sky that he was pointing at, beyond outer space, etc. Thats why I think it makes more sense to suggest that there was a metaphorical component to it. The only way for Allah to be located above every person in the world at any one moment is if His form is spherical and encircles the entire universe. And as far as I know, salafis do not believe in anything like this and neither do any other muslims. In fact I remember salafis having a very heated argument with people about whether Allah's throne is an actual throne that he sits on or just a metaphorical one.

ws

Wa alaykum as-Salam dear brother Mossad-Conspiracy,

This is a very common argument used against the Salafis. But the refutation of this is actually very simple.

Let me ask you: Where are the heavens? Can you point to the heavens? Do you point up? If you point up, would people on the opposite side of the earth point down when you ask them "where are the heavens"?

We know that the heavens are up, no matter where you are on the earth. Therefore, however you reconcile this for the heavens, then that reconciliation should work for Allah Almighty Who is above the heavens.

Nobody in his right mind would ever point downwards when you ask "where are the heavens"...no matter if he lived on the north pole or the south pole or Asia or Africa or South America or wherever...everyone points up.

[MossadConspiracy]

Salahadeen said

Wa alaykum as-Salam dear brother Mossad-Conspiracy,

This is a very common argument used against the Salafis. But the refutation of this is actually very simple.

Let me ask you: Where are the heavens? Can you point to the heavens? Do you point up? If you point up, would people on the opposite side of the earth point down when you ask them "where are the heavens"?

We know that the heavens are up, no matter where you are on the earth. Therefore, however you reconcile this for the heavens, then that reconciliation should work for Allah Almighty Who is above the heavens.

salam

thats the same point i was making. The prophet (saw) was not pointing to a specific spot but rather the sky and the "heavens" above it as a generality

if somebody asks you to point to where the international space station is, or the moon, or some other structure that exists beyond the sky, and at that point in time it was orbitting the opposite side of the earth, you would have to point downwards at the ground to be accurate.

ws

[Salahadeen]

Dear brother, if someone walks on the earth, is he above the earth or below it? If a man is in India, do we say that he is above the earth or below it? Surely we say that he is above/on the earth, i.e. the earth is below him. And a man who walks on the earth in America...is he above/on the earth, or is he below it? Surely he too is above the earth! So we see that no matter where anyone is on the earth, he is above it. And likewise the heavens--no matter where one is on earth--is above the earth.

But I do understand what you are trying to say about a space station...but this is delving into the matter more than is necessary...we only insist upon the 'where-ness' of Allah because the Prophet (s) specifically mentioned it...we don't go beyond this...having said that, I have heard that Allah encompasses the creation. Maybe another Salafi brother can answer your question insha-Allah.

[MossadConspiracy]

salam

i see what you're saying. its all about points of reference

i really dont know much about the theological discussion regarding the location of Allah, but thanks for explaining your view

ws

[Salahadeen]

MossadConspiracy said

salam

i see what you're saying. its all about points of reference

i really dont know much about the theological discussion regarding the location of Allah, but thanks for explaining your view

ws

May Allah bless you.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Don't engage in Kalam.

Have you studied the works of the major scholars of Kalam ?