[ChotooMotoo]

It's become very chic for the Pakistani Taliban to bomb barber shops (which also damages a lot of other property, even when it doesn't kill people) in Peshawar and other parts of the NWFP. Their reason is that barber shops also trim beards, or shave those who don't wear beards, so it's haram.

I can't find anywhere where it's haram to shave/trim your beard, or haram not to wear one at all. I am well aware that having a beard is sunnah. How would not following a sunnah be haram? Shouldn't it be upgraded from sunnah to fard then?

[Jamroll]

I agree with your sentiment, in that I believe there is more important things to instil in people than beard length, or even keeping a beard at all. However, if you're talking fundamentals and technicalities within scholarly circles, then the Taliban have a good basis for their stance (although we can debate whether their policies to implement this stance is really the best way to do it).

As far as I learnt it, shaving the beard totally, so that the face is clean shaven, is prohibited. Most scholars would not have a position contrary to this, although there are various subtle nuances on what "prohibitively disliked" means in different schools of fiqh. (See Revert's link below to the Shafi'i position)

Further, growing the beard is wajib. Although the wajib classification is particular to the Hanafi school, the statements of the other three Imams are pretty similar to Imam Abu Hanifa and his students on this issue. This means we can cut it, trim it, etc, and different scholars will have varying positions on how much this should be.

[ShahRukh]

Where's the news for this?


Haven't heard 'em attacking barber shops, but women's beauty salons which are underground centers for women's prostitution.

[jinnzaman]

Beards:

Hanafi madhab = Waajib
Hanbali madhab = Fardh
Maliki Madhab = Fardh
Shafi'i Madhab = Sunnah, but if the reason you're shaving is to imitate the kuffar, then it could be kufr

The Hanafi madhab defines the beard as the hair protruding from the jawline that is at least a fist length. All the other madhaib define it as hair protruding from the chin. All madhaib say that the true sunnah is to grow the beard out but they allow trimming at various lengths.

In terms of instituting a punishment for not following something that is fardh, sunnah, or wajib, that is the right of a legitimate state. However, the general rule is that a ta'zir punishment cannot exceed a hadd punishment.

Thus, the Taliban have two problems: (a) there is a question as to the legitimacy of their government; if they are not the valid government of a country, they cannot apply laws, ergo they would be considered vigilantes like the Khwaraaj and it would be the duty of the state to suppress them and (b) even if they were the legitimate government, they would still be wrong for instituting a punishment that grossly outweighed the crime.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I agree with your sentiment, in that I believe there is more important things to instil in people than beard length, or even keeping a beard at all. However, if you're talking fundamentals and technicalities within scholarly circles, then the Taliban have a good basis for their stance (although we can debate whether their policies to implement this stance is really the best way to do it).

As far as I learnt it, shaving the beard totally, so that the face is clean shaven, is prohibited. I don't think you'll find any scholar, worth any salt, who would have a position contrary to this.
Further, growing the beard is wajib. Although the wajib classification is particular to the Hanafi school, the statements of the other three Imams are pretty similar to Imam Abu Hanifa and his students on this issue. This means we can cut it, trim it, etc, and different scholars will have varying positions on how much this should be.

Just a heads up my brother.

The Ruling of Shaving and Shortening the Beard in the Shafi`i School

Despite all of the above, the two great verifying scholars of the Shafi`i school, Imam Abul Qasim al-Rafi`i and Imam Abu Zakariyya al-Nawawi—in accordance with the position of Imam Ghazali—have ruled that to keep a full beard is merely recommended, not obligatory, and that it is neither unlawful to shave it nor to shorten it, even when this is done without an excuse. It is, however, disliked to shorten or shave the beard because it contravenes the prophetic command to grow a full beard.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

It's become very chic for the Pakistani Taliban to bomb barber shops (which also damages a lot of other property, even when it doesn't kill people) in Peshawar and other parts of the NWFP. Their reason is that barber shops also trim beards, or shave those who don't wear beards, so it's haram.

I can't find anywhere where it's haram to shave/trim your beard, or haram not to wear one at all. I am well aware that having a beard is sunnah. How would not following a sunnah be haram? Shouldn't it be upgraded from sunnah to fard then?

Chotoo calm down or I'm gonna put a fake beard on your face

Well, if some people blow up barber shops, that shows their anger to the terrorism and barbarism of American and Pakistani Kuffar and Munafiqeen. All they are doing is a reaction, that's inevitable, in fact the crimes of these American and Pakistani Kuffar/Munafiqeen are so grave that if there were suicide attacks in the west on daily basis killing scores of children and women, that wouldn't be strange at all, because Pathans and Iraqis are loosing their women and children everyday, they can retaliate, they can burn the whole world in revenge, you shouldn't complain, and if you think it's fard on you to freak out then do against the Kafir Monsters in the West and their filthy slaves like Pakis.

Pathans or Talibans didn't blow up barber shops in the past, they were as practising Muslims then as they are today, good or bad, if some of them have turned to Extremists, then who's responsible, who made them Extremists, of course the Extremists, Narrow Minded, Terrorist West is making them Extremists. No complaints please..

[sally]

facial hair gives men wings.

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by sally

facial hair gives men wings.

No it doesn't. It gets bits of food stuck in our face.

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Beards:

Hanafi madhab = Waajib
Hanbali madhab = Fardh
Maliki Madhab = Fardh
Shafi'i Madhab = Sunnah, but if the reason you're shaving is to imitate the kuffar, then it could be kufr

The Hanafi madhab defines the beard as the hair protruding from the jawline that is at least a fist length. All the other madhaib define it as hair protruding from the chin. All madhaib say that the true sunnah is to grow the beard out but they allow trimming at various lengths.

In terms of instituting a punishment for not following something that is fardh, sunnah, or wajib, that is the right of a legitimate state. However, the general rule is that a ta'zir punishment cannot exceed a hadd punishment.

Thus, the Taliban have two problems: (a) there is a question as to the legitimacy of their government; if they are not the valid government of a country, they cannot apply laws, ergo they would be considered vigilantes like the Khwaraaj and it would be the duty of the state to suppress them and (b) even if they were the legitimate government, they would still be wrong for instituting a punishment that grossly outweighed the crime.

I have a question. Do I follow one of the four schools or do I become one, etc? When I converted, I just basically become Sunni Muslim. How do I know which of the four schools I'm in?

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Revert

Just a heads up my brother.

The Ruling of Shaving and Shortening the Beard in the Shafi`i School

Thanks for posting that, bro, but from my reading of it, it's referring to shaving part of, or shortening, the beard (unless I missed some). I was talking about complete shaving, so as the face is completely clean shaven - I don't think this is allowed?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Thanks for posting that, bro, but from my reading of it, it's referring to shaving part of, or shortening, the beard (unless I missed some). I was talking about complete shaving, so as the face is completely clean shaven - I don't think this is allowed?

The quote i presented said that its not unlawful to shave nor shorten the beard. Its a sunnah to ahve a beard, but not illegal to shave it off..unless its to imitate the kuffar. The ruling is place to help those that have specific jobs the require clean shaveness.

I'm no faqhi so i'm merely presenting the evidence broseph.

Originally Posted by Wolfn

I have a question. Do I follow one of the four schools or do I become one, etc? When I converted, I just basically become Sunni Muslim. How do I know which of the four schools I'm in?

Theres no obligation to follow anything. However the Qu'ran does encourage us to ask the knowledgable when faced with issues. Its better for laymen to ask people of knowledge..most muslims don't realise they follow a madhab as the go by what their community does. If your going off on Jammat's I'm assuming you go to a Tablighi Masjid..if so then your community are most likley follow the Hanafi madhab.

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by Revert

If your going off on Jammat's I'm assuming you go to a Tablighi Masjid..if so then your community are most likley follow the Hanafi madhab.

Yeah, I frequently go on Jamaats and such. Is Hanafi like the most common kind?

[zakk]

Heads up, TJs are not limited to Hanafi, as they refrain from fiqh matters.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Revert

The quote i presented said that its not unlawful to shave nor shorten the beard. Its a sunnah to ahve a beard, but not illegal to shave it off..unless its to imitate the kuffar. The ruling is place to help those that have specific jobs the require clean shaveness.

I'm no faqhi so i'm merely presenting the evidence broseph. .

I just re-read the article you posted. It seems that both Shafi'is and Hanafi jurists use the term "prohibitively disliked" but mean different things by it. To Hanafis "prohibitively disliked" means disliked to the point of prohibition, even though it's not technically haram, whereas Shafi'is use the term "prohibitivley disliked" to mean there is consensus in their school that it is disliked, and "disliked" is used when there are differing views. Well, I guess, you learn something new everyday.

Anyway, I think we're probably not sufficiently qualified to appreciate all the subtle nuances of the classifications. You're right, best leave it to the experts.

My basic point, was that the Taliban government had a recognised basis on which to press the beard thing, although I don't think their methods of implementing their position were very good.

[Bouncer]

Men grow out facial hair by nature when they reach the age of puberty. Surely the Creator intended something?

(Ok the anology is somewhat weak, because the same can be said for the hair under the arms and down their, but the difference is we are strictly ordered to trim the hair down there and under arms stated in the Hadeeths). But for the Beard you won't find one which says clean shave it. Instead you will find 30+ Hadeeths ordering Muslim Men (if they can) to lengthen the beard and trim the moustache. The answer is common sense.

Sunnah = Way of the Prophet (s.a.w) and his companions (a.s).

Each action is divided into different categories; Fard/Wajib, Mustaheb, Mubah or Makruh.