[Variable]

So I was in the female circumcision thread, and it got me thinking about male circumcision as well and why it's done in the first place.

I know people will point to health related issues - after doing some reading on it, it seems that they don't significantly amount to a lot. It reduces the chance of the transfer of HIV from female to male, and reduces the chance of a rare form of cancer.

But these benefits have to be weighed of course against the risk of the procedure itself. It's definitely got some, and not just in developing countries were the medical conditions may be less than ideal. For example the baby in the incubator next to mine suffered from complications and was likely going to have sexual problems for the rest of his life. So although small, there is still risk persists in developed countries as well.

How the health benefits pan out against the risks, I have no good idea. And I'm sure no one else here does either.


But my question is a bit more fundamental - I came across this text when I was reading up on female circumcision:

The Egyptian Dr Nawal El-Saadawi writes:

"If religion comes from God, how can it order man to cut off an organ created by Him as long as that organ is not diseased or deformed? God does not create the organs of the body haphazardly without a plan. It is not possible that He should have created the clitoris in woman’s body only in order that it be cut off at an early stage in life."

As a woman and a victim of circumcision herself, she was referring to the female genitals, but the point is equally applicable to the male foreskin – the part of the penis removed by circumcision."

So the question is, why would God create us in a way that requires body modification? It almost seems to me that evolutionists would be more likely to bring this up as a vestigial remnant of an earlier stage of our species development (they don't though), whereas someone with a religious background would be more likely to describe us as a product of intelligent design.

So does anyone have any thoughts on that?

[Timbit]

Perhaps as a test. To see whether we do it or not.
As we know, Ibrahim AS circumcised himself very late in his life when commanded to.

[MossadConspiracy]

three answers

one is that god commands and we muslims obey. people who arent muslims could be mystified by the stuff we do to follow him, but he's our god not theirs and we're the ones that have to follow his commands

the other answer is that circumcision permanently marks someone as a member of a group, and does so in a very important body part that is symbolically connected to concepts of power, masculinity, etc. I cant think of a more powerful way for a deity to mark his dominion over a people than by having all of their men cut off part of their penises.

There are also medical benefits to it, which were probably much more important in an era before antibiotics and modern sanitary living

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Perhaps as a test. To see whether we do it or not.
As we know, Ibrahim AS circumcised himself very late in his life when commanded to.

At the risk of sounding insensitive - doesn't that strike you as kind of a jerk thing to do?

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

three answers

one is that god commands and we muslims obey. people who arent muslims could be mystified by the stuff we do to follow him, but he's our god not theirs and we're the ones that have to follow his commands

the other answer is that circumcision permanently marks someone as a member of a group, and does so in a very important body part that is symbolically connected to concepts of power, masculinity, etc. I cant think of a more powerful way for a deity to mark his dominion over a people than by having all of their men cut off part of their penises.

See, I think maybe something like a branding on our manly chests or shoulders at the age of 13 would be a much more powerful statement of faith. At an age we can remember it and in a place where people can see it.

There are also medical benefits to it, which were probably much more important in an era before antibiotics and modern sanitary living

Yeh, but there are also medical risks, probably again much more severe in a time before antibiotics and sanitary living like you point out.

But I'm more interested in the reasons above: why would a God make us 'perfectly' only to have us cut parts off.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

since when did God make us 'perfectly'? We are all born with deficiences - physical and otherwise.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

since when did God make us 'perfectly'? We are all born with deficiences - physical and otherwise.

Well, there's a difference between having say a pulmonary disorder, a frighteningly large nose, or a deformed hand.

Foreskin is something that all males have (and females for that matter), and if that were a 'deficiency' it'd be very different in that that afflicts us as a human species rather than the unfortunate individuals within it.

But okay, that's one way to look at it, that no one said that God has created us perfectly in the first place.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Variable

See, I think maybe something like a branding on our manly chests or shoulders at the age of 13 would be a much more powerful statement of faith. At an age we can remember it and in a place where people can see it.

It isnt a statement of faith as much as it is a mark, like the brand as you described it. The key isnt the pain of the process, but the mark it confers. Jews describe it as a 'covenant' because their tribe was bonded to God and marked as his chosen people by not having foreskins.

The penis is much more important than the manly chest, and is a much more appropriate place to bear a mark from God. you're right that its less visible, but nonetheless its a much more powerful statement.

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh, but there are also medical risks, probably again much more severe in a time before antibiotics and sanitary living like you point out.

true but even in the past the procedure was pretty simple and safe

Originally Posted by Variable

But I'm more interested in the reasons above: why would a God make us 'perfectly' only to have us cut parts off.

why do you say that humans are perfect though?

[Revert]

Islamically we do it to follow the way of Ibrahim(as) as the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) encourages us to follow the millah of Hadrat Ibrahim(AS)

Circumcision

ONe thing I neevr understood though, if its such a big spiiritual symbol..why have it done as a baby? Surely its better to get it done as an adult? I mean you are doing it for yourself rather than your parents forcing you to have it?

Maybe that aspect of the din is lost on me.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Vari:

There are many things in Islam which on the surface appear to be inconsequential, without purpose, or even illogical. Fingernails are a part of our human body yet we've been ordered to cut them. Ditto for bodily hair. On the surface of it, male circumcision is about hygiene because nowhere in Islam will you find disregard for hygiene. Its possible there are other reasons that we don't know of yet, but that's irrelevant.

[Spice]

Originally Posted by Variable

At the risk of sounding insensitive - doesn't that strike you as kind of a jerk thing to do?


.

Ah, please explain what that means "a jerk thing to do".

[Variable]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

The penis is much more important than the manly chest, and is a much more appropriate place to bear a mark from God. you're right that its less visible, but nonetheless its a much more powerful statement.

I think that's very subjective. Why does that make it a more powerful statement?

true but even in the past the procedure was pretty simple and safe

It wasn't so safe for the kid next to me... I don't know how the risk stacks up to the health benefits (especially in the past), I'm tempted to say that nobody can know that. So I want to steer away from that side of things.

why do you say that humans are perfect though?

Yeh, I guess I'm arguing from an intelligent design point of view - if God created us as a whole unit, then why give us this tissue we've gotta cut off?

Originally Posted by Revert

ONe thing I neevr understood though, if its such a big spiiritual symbol..why have it done as a baby? Surely its better to get it done as an adult? I mean you are doing it for yourself rather than your parents forcing you to have it?

Maybe that aspect of the din is lost on me.

I don't think spirituality has a lot to do with indoctrination of our children... we want them to share our beliefs and culture, and we rarely give them a choice in the matter. I think circumcision falls along those lines somewhere.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Vari:

There are many things in Islam which on the surface appear to be inconsequential, without purpose, or even illogical. Fingernails are a part of our human body yet we've been ordered to cut them. Ditto for bodily hair. On the surface of it, male circumcision is about hygiene because nowhere in Islam will you find disregard for hygiene. Its possible there are other reasons that we don't know of yet, but that's irrelevant.

Fingernails and bodily hair don't really fit into this issue. They're non-living tissue. Fingernails grow because they wore away naturally before humans slid into our current cushy lifestyles (30000 years ago +) etc. Hygiene - maybe, though it doesn't have to be unhygienic. Girls have similar tissue and they aren't any more 'dirty' than we are.

Originally Posted by Spice

Ah, please explain what that means "a jerk thing to do".

Yeh, I meant it probably as bad as it sounds, but without intention of offending. Would it not be sort of mean to create a creature possessing a piece of flesh with the specific intention that it be cut off (painfully if one is grown already) - just 'to see if they'll do it'? And to separate themselves from those others of his creation who don't show similar allegiance? To me that sounds kind of like a jerk thing to do... whether that's what God did or not.

[shadha]

Revert: ONe thing I neevr understood though, if its such a big spiiritual symbol..why have it done as a baby? Surely its better to get it done as an adult? I mean you are doing it for yourself rather than your parents forcing you to have it?
Maybe that aspect of the din is lost on me.

Because you are bringing pain onto your newborn child in the name of God?

I also heard there is a higher level of risk that comes with age.


shadha-

[ameen]

salam,

There is no mention of male or female circumcision in the Qur'an, both are innovations which have been falsely attributed to religion and are blindly imposed on clueless babies and children around the world.

[Laimuun]

Originally Posted by Revert

ONe thing I neevr understood though, if its such a big spiiritual symbol..why have it done as a baby? Surely its better to get it done as an adult? I mean you are doing it for yourself rather than your parents forcing you to have it?

I know it's customary for bengalis to do it when the kid is like 13 or 14. and they have a huge party for the occasion.

I'm told it's more painful to do it as you get older though. I couldn't imagine an adult or teen getting it done. best to do it when the baby won't remember and can be soothed after by his mom's milk.