[Jamroll]

Pakistanis tend to get it done when the child is a very young baby (like a few days or weeks old), but there's no hard and fast rule. I'm glad I had the chop when I was so young I don't even remember it.

I really feel for older kids having it done, especially adolescents. I think it takes real comittment when adults have it done, such as those who've converted to Islam as adults. Maybe that's what it's all about. You can't get much of a bigger committment to your faith then that.

[nectar]

From Sunnipath:

...Besides the above, circumcision also carries numerous physical benefits .It also prevents many illnesses.

Furthermore circumcision is an important aspect of taharah (cleanliness), which is so strongly emphasised in Islam, for when the foreskin is not removed, urine and other secretions can collect under the folded skin. This area can become the site of very painful infections from bacterial growth and the minor operation of circumcision greatly simplifies basic hygiene for men and boys. "Indeed God loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure" - Qur'an Surah al-Baqarah

Hence it is a greatly meritorious sunnah as well as physically beneficial to perform this act. However it is not a pre-requisite for conversion to Islam.

The above (taharah) is also the reason why hair around the private parts should be removed.



And:

Circumcision:
As far as circumcision for males is concerned, it is a highly emphasised way of the Messenger of Allah (Sunnah Mu’akkadah) and one of the salient features of Islam (sha’air).
The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) said: “The practices related to Fitrah(natural human ways) are five: Circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the underarm” ( Sahihal-Bukhari)

He (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and a source of pleasure (in sexual intercourse) by performing it on women” (Recorded by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad and Imam al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan with a weak chain of narrators, from Radd al-Muhtar).
In the light of the above, newborn males should be circumcised before the child has attained puberty. Failing to do so will amount in leaving out a salient feature of Islam.
Regarding a male who accepts Islam and is above the age of puberty, or a child who was not circumcised for some reason until he reached puberty, then this has three possibilities:
1) If the male is able to endure the act of circumcision and there is no fear of harm being afflicted on him, and also it is done by oneself as not to expose the Awra in front of another person, then circumcision should be carried out.
2) If one is able to bear and endure without the fear of harm, but at the same time it will mean exposing ones Awra in front of another person, then there is a difference of opinion between the scholars on whether circumcision should be carried out.
On one hand, we have the order of not exposing your Awra in front of other people except in dire situations, but on the other hand, we have this great salient feature of Islam. Some of the contemporary scholars have said that in this situation circumcision should be carried out for two reasons:
a) Circumcision is a form of treatment, and the Fuqaha have given a dispensation in exposing the Awra for treatment and medication.
b) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is reported to have said: “Whoever accepts Islam should have his circumcision performed” (Talkhisal-Habir). In the light of the above narration, the scholars have said that if there is no fear of harm and the adult male is able to bear circumcision, then it should be carried out.
3) The third situation is where the grown up male is not in a position to tolerate or bear the pain of circumcision, or there is fear of harm being inflicted on him, then circumcision can be (and should be) avoided.
Islam is a religion of mercy and orders only that which is within the capacity and capability of an individual. It never commands that which is beyond ones capacity.
Allah Most High says:
“On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear” (Qur’an, 2:286).
The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (may Allah have mercy on him) states:
“If an old person entered Islam, and (medical) experts were of the view that he won’t be able to bear it, then circumcision should not be carried out” (Durr al-Mukhtar).
One of the great Hadith experts (hafidh), Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) says:
“If the child attained puberty, and he is weak to an extent that if circumcision was carried out on him, he will perish, then the necessity of circumcision will no longer remain” (Fath al-Bari, 10/289).
Another Hadith expert and Hanafi scholar, Imam al-Kashmiri (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari:
“I don’t recommend circumcision for those that have reached puberty, as it is very painful and could lead to death” (Faydh al-Bari, 4/413).
However, it should be remembered here, that he who opts not to be circumcised should regularly clean the area underneath the foreskin of his sex organ because, in Islam cleanliness of the body is obligatory for performing prayers.

[sheik_speare]

Assalamu alaikum

this addresses the topic currently at hand. it touches upon whether older converts are obligated to follow the sunnah and some of the reasons behind the sunnah. most importantly, remember that there are a plethora of wisdoms behind Allah and the Prophet's commands.

Considering Converting: Is it necessary to be circumcised?

Circumcision:

As far as circumcision for males is concerned, it is a highly emphasised way of the Messenger of Allah (Sunnah Mu’akkadah) and one of the salient features of Islam (sha’air).

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) said: “The practices related to Fitrah(natural human ways) are five: Circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the underarm” ( Sahihal-Bukhari)

He (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and a source of pleasure (in sexual intercourse) by performing it on women” (Recorded by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad and Imam al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan with a weak chain of narrators, from Radd al-Muhtar).

In the light of the above, newborn males should be circumcised before the child has attained puberty. Failing to do so will amount in leaving out a salient feature of Islam.

Regarding a male who accepts Islam and is above the age of puberty, or a child who was not circumcised for some reason until he reached puberty, then this has three possibilities:

1) If the male is able to endure the act of circumcision and there is no fear of harm being afflicted on him, and also it is done by oneself as not to expose the Awra in front of another person, then circumcision should be carried out.

2) If one is able to bear and endure without the fear of harm, but at the same time it will mean exposing ones Awra in front of another person, then there is a difference of opinion between the scholars on whether circumcision should be carried out.

On one hand, we have the order of not exposing your Awra in front of other people except in dire situations, but on the other hand, we have this great salient feature of Islam. Some of the contemporary scholars have said that in this situation circumcision should be carried out for two reasons:

a) Circumcision is a form of treatment, and the Fuqaha have given a dispensation in exposing the Awra for treatment and medication.

b) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is reported to have said: “Whoever accepts Islam should have his circumcision performed” (Talkhisal-Habir). In the light of the above narration, the scholars have said that if there is no fear of harm and the adult male is able to bear circumcision, then it should be carried out.

3) The third situation is where the grown up male is not in a position to tolerate or bear the pain of circumcision, or there is fear of harm being inflicted on him, then circumcision can be (and should be) avoided.

Islam is a religion of mercy and orders only that which is within the capacity and capability of an individual. It never commands that which is beyond ones capacity.

Allah Most High says:

“On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear” (Qur’an, 2:286).

The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (may Allah have mercy on him) states:

“If an old person entered Islam, and (medical) experts were of the view that he won’t be able to bear it, then circumcision should not be carried out” (Durr al-Mukhtar).

One of the great Hadith experts (hafidh), Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) says:

“If the child attained puberty, and he is weak to an extent that if circumcision was carried out on him, he will perish, then the necessity of circumcision will no longer remain” (Fath al-Bari, 10/289).

Another Hadith expert and Hanafi scholar, Imam al-Kashmiri (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari:

“I don’t recommend circumcision for those that have reached puberty, as it is very painful and could lead to death” (Faydh al-Bari, 4/413).

However, it should be remembered here, that he who opts not to be circumcised should regularly clean the area underneath the foreskin of his sex organ because, in Islam cleanliness of the body is obligatory for performing prayers.

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

There is no mention of male or female circumcision in the Qur'an, both are innovations which have been falsely attributed to religion and are blindly imposed on clueless babies and children around the world.

being a follower of an innovation, i guess i am destined for hell...

and Allah Almighty knows best.

[ameen]

Originally Posted by Revert

How do you define the creed of Ibrahim (as)?

salam,

The Qur'an itself explains the creed of Prophet Ibrahim, which is in-fact the same creed as all other Prophets:

"Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was of those who firmly surrendered exclusively to Allah, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah". - (3:67)

So the Verse you quoted refers to the belief in the Oneness of God and turning away from all forms of idol-worship, and the same Verse actually ends by explicitly mentioning this.

wasalam

[Sabz]

All i have to say on the issue is that Allah swt knows best and wouldnt you rather be safe then sorry, plus variable stop tryna get out of 'the chop' you guys have it easy, its us girls who go through the pain staking period pains and all that jazz so come on fellas stop tryna get out of YOUR pain

walaikum as salaam
Sabz

[Variable]

Originally Posted by nectar

From Sunnipath:



The above (taharah) is also the reason why hair around the private parts should be removed.



And:

I don't think it does have 'many' health benefits, I've pointed those I've found and also the medical risks. As for hygiene, I don't really think that's a strong case either. Honestly I don't know the challenges facing someone who hasn't been circumcised (I'm circumcised too... in case anyone was curious ), but I don't see them as being huge. Certainly no more than a girl would face (girls have similar folded tissue around the urethra)

When it comes to pubic hair, and other body hair... I'm not convinced it makes anyone cleaner either. Beards are thick hair surrounding the orifice into which you put food (cowboys call them 'soup catchers'), that doesn't sound particularly hygienic either. But with a little extra care they're fine. You just clean yourself.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sheik_speare

He (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and a source of pleasure (in sexual intercourse) by performing it on women” (Recorded by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad and Imam al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan with a weak chain of narrators, from Radd al-Muhtar).

I'm not exactly sure what this is saying - but it kind of decreases the sexual pleasure in men as far as I know.

Originally Posted by Sabz

All i have to say on the issue is that Allah swt knows best and wouldnt you rather be safe then sorry, plus variable stop tryna get out of 'the chop' you guys have it easy, its us girls who go through the pain staking period pains and all that jazz so come on fellas stop tryna get out of YOUR pain

walaikum as salaam
Sabz

... as far as I remember, it was no sweat.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

The Qur'an itself explains the creed of Prophet Ibrahim, which is in-fact the same creed as all other Prophets:

"Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was of those who firmly surrendered exclusively to Allah, and he was not of those who associated partners with Allah". - (3:67)

So the Verse you quoted refers to the belief in the Oneness of God and turning away from all forms of idol-worship, and the same Verse actually ends by explicitly mentioning this.

wasalam

Wasalaam, thanks for clarifying your stance.

SO do you accept that Ibrahim circumcised himself as a test or not? It's not emphatically stated in the Quran but Hadrat Ibrahims devotion to Allah IS explaned in the Quran. I was wondering if you accept the Tawrahs explanation of Ibrahims devotion to Allah too.

I'm not trying to start and argument, I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.

May you go in peace.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Variable

I don't think it does have 'many' health benefits, I've pointed those I've found and also the medical risks. As for hygiene, I don't really think that's a strong case either. Honestly I don't know the challenges facing someone who hasn't been circumcised (I'm circumcised too... in case anyone was curious ), but I don't see them as being huge. Certainly no more than a girl would face (girls have similar folded tissue around the urethra)

When it comes to pubic hair, and other body hair... I'm not convinced it makes anyone cleaner either. Beards are thick hair surrounding the orifice into which you put food (cowboys call them 'soup catchers'), that doesn't sound particularly hygienic either. But with a little extra care they're fine. You just clean yourself.

I am not sure but I think this is one of the reasons The Prophet Muhammad comanded the Muslim men to keep the moustaches short.

[nectar]

Originally Posted by Variable

I don't think it does have 'many' health benefits, I've pointed those I've found and also the medical risks. As for hygiene, I don't really think that's a strong case either. Honestly I don't know the challenges facing someone who hasn't been circumcised (I'm circumcised too... in case anyone was curious ), but I don't see them as being huge. Certainly no more than a girl would face (girls have similar folded tissue around the urethra)

When it comes to pubic hair, and other body hair... I'm not convinced it makes anyone cleaner either. Beards are thick hair surrounding the orifice into which you put food (cowboys call them 'soup catchers'), that doesn't sound particularly hygienic either. But with a little extra care they're fine. You just clean yourself.

See for us it's not about food or general dirtiness, but najaasat/impurity (urine, stool etc.) our daily prayers don't count if we have any najaasat on our bodies. That's where taharah/ purity comes in, we have to be extra sure. end of the quote in my previous post:

However, it should be remembered here, that he who opts not to be circumcised should regularly clean the area underneath the foreskin of his sex organ because, in Islam cleanliness of the body is obligatory for performing prayers.

[Jetmir]

Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

There is no mention of male or female circumcision in the Qur'an, both are innovations which have been falsely attributed to religion and are blindly imposed on clueless babies and children around the world.

Did you figure out how to pray yet?

[zakk]

The ultimate reason is that it is a commandment. If you accept Islam, by default you accept what Allah and the Prophet (sa) tell you to do, even if you cannot rationalize it to the point of irrefutable benefit. You may have some benefits, but you don't do it for the benefits. You do it because it's what you're supposed to do.

revert, if I could do any action in this deen in my children's stead and take that obligation off of them, I would. This is one of the only things I can think of off the top of my head where I can take care of the obligation for my son, at a time when he won't remember the pain or need to make a decision about it.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Revert

I am not sure but I think this is one of the reasons The Prophet Muhammad comanded the Muslim men to keep the moustaches short.

- there's still the old 'soup catcher' though.

Originally Posted by nectar

See for us it's not about food or general dirtiness, but najaasat/impurity (urine, stool etc.) our daily prayers don't count if we have any najaasat on our bodies. That's where taharah/ purity comes in, we have to be extra sure. end of the quote in my previous post:

Muslims have to clean with water after urinating anyway though, right?

Like I said, I can't know what difficulties in cleanliness someone with foreskin needs to deal with, but as I've said again and again... they can't have a much more difficult time than a girl has cleaning herself, and I don't think it's a severe burden on them.

Also I'm also not one to take what the medical community has to say as gospel, but most in English speaking countries have seemed to reverse their stance in recent times to not recommending the removal of 'normal healthy tissue' without medical need. If there were swarms of health risks that accompanied the maintenance of foreskin, I'd suspect there would be more said on the issue the other way.

I do acknowledge that there are benefits, they lay them out in the readily available literature. But right next to them are plenty of risks.