Muslims say they dont believe Jesus can atone for sins with His death....BUT

JeffVandenburg · #1 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:16 PM

Muslims say they dont believe Jesus can atone for sins with His death BUT then what do they say concerning a martyr (sheed)?

They say that when the first drop of a martyr's blood is spilled by jihad, they are forgiven?

NOT ONLY THIS, they also say they can "atone" for 70 family and friends as well!

This is terrible falsehood, the Son of God cannot atone for sins but a regular man can? That is a lie.

shsh · #2 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Muslims say they dont believe Jesus can atone for sins with His death BUT then what do they say concerning a martyr (sheed)?

They say that when the first drop of a martyr's blood is spilled by jihad, they are forgiven?

NOT ONLY THIS, they also say they can "atone" for 70 family and friends as well!

This is terrible falsehood, the Son of God cannot atone for sins but a regular man can? That is a lie.

uh...if a person is shaheed* that means he died in the will of Allah (swt) and for that Allah (swt) will send that person straight to jannah...

as for "atoning" 70 family and friends...i am not sure, maybe someone else can talk about it..

but we say that Jesus (as) couldnt have "atoned" for other people sin by his death, because we dont believe that Jesus (as) has died. Allah (swt) raised him to heaven when he was about to be crucified and replaced him with another person....so how can a person who didnt die atone for others by shedding someone else's blood

and also, to us, Jesus (as) is a prophet, not a son of God.

IbnMardhiyah · #3 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Muslims say they dont believe Jesus can atone for sins with His death BUT then what do they say concerning a martyr (sheed)?

They say that when the first drop of a martyr's blood is spilled by jihad, they are forgiven?

NOT ONLY THIS, they also say they can "atone" for 70 family and friends as well!

You are mistaken.

1) We believe that Prophet Jesus [peace be upon him] did not die nor was he crucified. He was taken up by God in a manner only He knows best, and is being kept with Him until his second coming.

2) We do not believe that any man can carry the burden of others. It does not make sense to believe that I could go through life killing, murdering, raping, stealing, lying, and committing all sorts of crimes under the sun, and then all I have to do to get a free ticket to Paradise ... is to acknowledge that Jesus died for my sins? Give me a freaking break.

3) A shaheed / martyr who is killed in battle is given a special concession by God, and that is, that all of his own sins are wiped away, and he's given a clean slate. He worked and made the effort to have his sins wiped away, he wasn't given a free ticket.

4) Another concession given to him is that on Judgment Day, he is allowed to intercede for a great number of his family members and relatives, but there is no guarantee that his intercession will be accepted. Simply the fact that he will be given permission to step forward and make the intercession request is a huge status enough - no one else will be allowed to step forward and speak for others, with the exception of Prophet Muhammad and even then, that's only with God's permission.

Quote:

This is terrible falsehood, the Son of God cannot atone for sins but a regular man can? That is a lie.

You are confused.

Arabesque · #4 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:25 PM

Because Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified in the first place, let alone him being the son of God. I hate to be the one to cast the pall, but God has no son.

Hallelujah!

shsh · #5 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You are mistaken.

1) We believe that Prophet Jesus [peace be upon him] did not die nor was he crucified. He was taken up by God in a manner only He knows best, and is being kept with Him until his second coming.

2) We do not believe that any many can carry the burden of others. It does not make sense to believe that I could go through life killing, murdering, raping, stealing, lying, and committing all sorts of crimes under the sun, and then all I have to do to get a free ticket to Paradise ... is to acknowledge that Jesus died for my sins? Give me a freaking break.

3) A shaheed / martyr who is killed in battle is given a special concession by God, and that is, that all of his own sins are wiped away, and he's given a clean slate. He worked and made the effort to have his sins wiped away, he wasn't given a free ticket.

4) Another concession given to him is that on Judgment Day, he is allowed to intercede for a great number of his family members and relatives, but there is no guarantee that his intercession will be accepted. Simply the fact that he will be given permission to step forward and make the intercession request is a huge status enough - no one else will be allowed to step forward and speak for others, with the exception of Prophet Muhammad and even then, that's only with God's permission.

You are confused.

damn...cant rep you...

Arabatman · #6 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Muslims say they dont believe Jesus can atone for sins with His death BUT then what do they say concerning a martyr (sheed)?

They say that when the first drop of a martyr's blood is spilled by jihad, they are forgiven?

NOT ONLY THIS, they also say they can "atone" for 70 family and friends as well!

This is terrible falsehood, the Son of God cannot atone for sins but a regular man can? That is a lie.

The Martyr has the ability to intercede for 70 of their family members. Thats a big difference than atone. Intercede is to speak on someones behalf so God will forgive them, and God does not have to accept the intercession. To atone is basically to expiate someone from all their sins, and the shaheed can not do that.

Peace out.

-Zahid

JeffVandenburg · #7 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:44 PM

Islam is founded on attempting to disprove Yeshua the Son of God in the flesh bcause satan does not ant you to believe.

WHAT kind of religion has tons of material trying to disprove other religions? Pathetic.

Satan has to try to disprove the truth though and he came AFTER Yah revealed the truth with the lie that you have all seen and heard now.

How can the lie come before the truth?!!!! Nonsense!

Arabesque · #8 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Islam is founded on attempting to disprove Yeshua the Son of God in the flesh bcause satan does not ant you to believe.

WHAT kind of religion has tons of material trying to disprove other religions? Pathetic.

Satan has to try to disprove the truth though and he came AFTER Yah revealed the truth with the lie that you have all seen and heard now.

How can the lie come before the truth?!!!! Nonsense!

You're right. Anything that comes after is doubtful. Christianity came after Judaism. There you go.

IbnMardhiyah · #9 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

How can the lie come before the truth?!!!! Nonsense!

How can your gluteus maximus come before your face? nonsense!

oh wait, we're talking about Jeff VanDenBurg ... right

shsh · #10 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Islam is founded on attempting to disprove Yeshua the Son of God in the flesh bcause satan does not ant you to believe.

WHAT kind of religion has tons of material trying to disprove other religions? Pathetic.

Satan has to try to disprove the truth though and he came AFTER Yah revealed the truth with the lie that you have all seen and heard now.

How can the lie come before the truth?!!!! Nonsense!

uh...satan was there before Adam (as)...his name is iblees and he refused to bow down to Adam (as) when Allah (swt) told him too....

JeffVandenburg · #11 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arabesque

You're right. Anything that comes after is doubtful. Christianity came after Judaism. There you go.

Wrong, Yeshua was there in the beginning. Why else would Genesis use plural references to the Godhead during the creation story?!

JeffVandenburg · #12 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

How can your gluteus maximus come before your face? nonsense!

oh wait, we're talking about Jeff VanDenBurg ... right

Westcoast my fellow compadre- please learn who Jesus Christ really is! I love ya'll

Arabesque · #13 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Wrong, Yeshua was there in the beginning. Why else would Genesis use plural references to the Godhead during the creation story?!

Say that to a Jew. I'm glad we have another thing in common with Jews.

JeffVandenburg · #14 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Say that to a Jew. I'm glad we have another thing in common with Jews.

Im sure you are.

Notice how the Jews are back in Israel just as the Bible fortold over and over and over?

This is the end days, and the islamic antichrist is coming soon (mahdi).

Arabesque · #15 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffVandenburg

Im sure you are.

Notice how the Jews are back in Israel just as the Bible fortold over and over and over?

This is the end days, and the islamic antichrist is coming soon (mahdi).

Oh, don't worry about that. The Qur'an had other plans for those in Israel

"Behold! thy Lord did declare that He would send against them [Bani Israel], to the Day of Judgment, those who would afflict them with grievous penalty." [7:1