[rahat]

Salaam,

I've heard these terms in the past, but I always confuse them, could someone please define them, (or atleast clarify if its even a real word), if its a group or an ideology, its historical basis, and its counter-part (i.e. opposing group):

1. Barelvi Sunni

2. Deobandi Sunni

3. Athari

4. Ashari

I know what Maturidi is, but i always confuse athari and ashari.

5, Difference between Salafi and Wahabi, if any (im under the impression that salafi is the PC term for wahabi) and when eact sect (if they actually are different groups) actually arose/split

6. Is there such a thing as a modern day kharjirite? or is this just a "diss" used against people they disagree with?

7. I've heard the phrase "I'm A in aqeedah but B in fiqh" <-- what the heck does that mean? i know its supposed to mean that i follow one ideology for philosophy and one for jurispudence, but since when is that allowed in the Sunni fiqh, doesn't that defeat the concept of Taqleed as it exists in the Sunni view?

8. Naqshabandi

9. The actual formal fiqh definition of "Bidah" as per sunni theology

Not looking to diss/debate, just wanting some clarification

-
rahat

[Wolfn]

Good questions. I myself am a Sunni but don't understand them.

[jghug]

yeah I don't understand it either especially the Barelvi sunni and the Deobandi sunni thing

[Biryani]

I'll leave this to the Sunnis, but incase they can't answer I can answer a few of those.

[Sugarberry]

theres only about 2 people on islamica that actually have the knowledge to answer your questions accurately. So i would suggest maybe asking on more educational website, like sunnipath.com, Almagrib or themadina.com

[riad19]

Originally Posted by sak01

1) The followers of Imam Ahmed Raza Khan (ra), a scholar of very high caliber. I think it's the largest group in the Indian subcontinent but certainly the largest in Pakistan.

2) Founded in the town of Deoband by 4-6 scholars also of very high caliber who had a dispute with Imam Raza Khan (ra) over some misunderstanding. The dispute was exascerbated to epic proportions by some later, lesser scholars. Second largest in subcontinent

4) Aqeedah school of thought with a few differences from the Maturidi school. Otherwise very similar

5)Salafi/wahabi often used interchangeably but there are many different salafi sub-groups and wahabi is sometimes used to refer to the followers of Saudi scholars, Shaykh Uthaymeen and co. edit: Actually, wahabi is another name for the Ahle Hadith in the subontinent. 'salafi' is not coomonly used there and also some followers of 1) use it as a derogatory term for 2)

6) I think the Ibaadis are the only Khwariji sect today although they are considered to be moderate compared to their predecessors. Oman is majority Ibaadi about 70%.

7) Apples and Oranges. See the famous Gibril (as) hadeeth.

8) One of the main sufi orders. Sufism being the 3rd part of the triumvirate mentioned in the Gibril hadeeth. The only one to descend from Hadhrat Abu Bakr Siddique(radhiallahu anhu) while all others descend from Hadhrat Ali (karamallahu wajhu). Named after the great Shaykh Bahauddin Naqshband (ra)

salaams bro,
excellent answer. except Deobandis are largest and more widely accepted than berelvis are.

[Shahnawaz]

1. Barelvi Sunni
Group founded by a dude named Ahmed Rida Khan, who based his deen on mostly folklore and tradition of his fathers. Majorly influenced by sufiyyah while never refering to any of the Prophet's ahadith.

2. Deobandi Sunni
Someone who has graduated from the madrasah of deoband or its branches, similar to the title such as "Azhari". It doesn't neccesarily denote any perticular leaning in terms of belief, rather a whole spectrum of thoughts could form in graduates of this school. The school was formed initially to fight the British influence and to preserve the sunnah. This was almost an antithesis to the Brelwi movement which of course was not so concerned with the Sunnah, rather tradition was key.

3. Athari
One who adheres to the aqeedah of the Salaf, as outlined by the numerous ahadith of the three early generations. This sets them apart from the other "Schools" of aqeeda where much of the ideas where borrowed from helenic traditions. Athari aqeedah rejects rational speculation, and prefers to accept Quran Ayaat and Sahih ahadith (regardless of whether they are ahad or Mutawatir).

4. Ashari
School of thought named after Abul Hasan al-Ashari (rahimahullah), who was before his transformation, a mu'tazili. He dedicated his life to refuting devient mu'tazili ideas, but due to his lack of grounding in ahadith and a life time of influence from speculative philosophy, he too fell into mistakes of denying some attributes etc. But before his death he publically renounced his early mistakes of using helenic tradtions to compliment the Quran, as opposed to ahadith, and outlined in his last book, al-Ibana, that he is on what Imam Ahmed was on. But even after this, his followers still teach and hold on to teachings before al-Ibana, and have advanced from his mistakes taking it to levels it never was in the time of the Imam.

I know what Maturidi is, but i always confuse athari and ashari.

5, Difference between Salafi and Wahabi, if any (im under the impression that salafi is the PC term for wahabi) and when eact sect (if they actually are different groups) actually arose/split.
Salafi-synonymous with Athari. Means following the way of the early generations, as opposed to the Khalaf.
Wahabi-derogetory term for the above group, naming them after al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Abdil Wahhab (rahimahullah), who led the fight against innovations in the deen, and returing the Muslims back to the Way of the sahabah.

6. Is there such a thing as a modern day kharjirite? or is this just a "diss" used against people they disagree with?
Like the brother above pointed out, the Ibadi sect of Oman is the only froup which officially holds that a major sin takes one out of the Deen. But there are groups that exhibit traits of the Khawarij, such as the group from egypt "takfir wal Hijra", against whom Shaykh abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi wrote a great book outlining where they have strayed from Ahlus Sunnah.

7. I've heard the phrase "I'm A in aqeedah but B in fiqh"
la adri


8. Naqshabandi
One of the many sufi tareeqas which have strayed from the Sunnah. Don't know any details about them, and frankly don't care to know. The Prophet (s) said: There is nothing in this dunya that brings you closer to Jannah, except that I have informed you of it. And there is nothing in this dunya that brings you closer to Jahannam, except that I have warned you agaisnt it(Musnad ash-Shafi'ee and others). To accept waht these tariqas teach would be to deny that the Prophet (s) completed the deen, as they enjoin and prohibit things which weren't by Allah. Allah says: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." [5:4]


9. The actual formal fiqh definition of "Bidah" as per sunni theology
Every innovation into the religion is bid'a. And every bid'a is misguidence. And the misguidence leads to the hell-fire. Allah says, "and whosoever contends with the Messenger () after guidance has been made clear to him, and follows a way other than the way of the believers, We shall leave in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell, what an evil destination!"

[Abdul_Karim]

Originally Posted by rahat

1. Barelvi Sunni

Barelvis believe that Rasulullah (salallahu alayhi wa salaam) sees all and knows all (Hazir-o-Nazir). If you disagree with them about anything, they'll call you a "Wahhabi" (even if your a Shi'ite) and accuse you of hating the Prophet. If they find a hair in their soup they accuse it of being a Wahhabi. They wear green turbans and have tackily decorated masjids wth Christmas lights all over the place.

Originally Posted by rahat

2. Deobandi Sunni

Conservative Hanafis from the Indian Subcontinent. They practice a more sober and austere form of Sufism than the Barelvis (the Barlevis like to scream and shout, whereas the Deobandis are more subdued). They also seem to be fond of vests.

3. Athari

People who believe that the Qur'an and ahadeeth are the sole source of aqeedah, and that speculation has no place in interpreting Allah's attributes. This aqeedah is mainly associated with Salafis, but certain Sufis (such as Khwajah Abdullah Ansari) held this belief as well.

4. Ashari

Ash'aris believe that the universe is made up of unbreakable, continually regenerating atoms, which Allah (azza wa jal) recreates at every moment.

I know what Maturidi is, but i always confuse athari and ashari.

5, Difference between Salafi and Wahabi, if any (im under the impression that salafi is the PC term for wahabi) and when eact sect (if they actually are different groups) actually arose/split

"Wahhabi" is a word that Barelvis and Shi'ites use to insult anyone who disagrees with them. Also, everyone has a different definition for it, and not even the Salafis agree on who's a Salafi or not.

6. Is there such a thing as a modern day kharjirite? or is this just a "diss" used against people they disagree with?

Typically it's just a diss. Sufis use it against Salafis, Salafis use it against Jihadis, etc. There is tiny a sect called the Ibadhis who are actually descended from the Khwaraj, but no one pays them any attention.

7. I've heard the phrase "I'm A in aqeedah but B in fiqh" <-- what the heck does that mean? i know its supposed to mean that i follow one ideology for philosophy and one for jurispudence, but since when is that allowed in the Sunni fiqh, doesn't that defeat the concept of Taqleed as it exists in the Sunni view?

The same way that the Shi'ah can be Mutazilah in aqeedah and Ja'fari in fiqh.

8. Naqshabandi

One of the major Sufi tariqahs. There are four main branches: the Naqshbandi Mujaddidiyya (from Ahmad Sarhindi), the Naqshbandi Khalidiyya (an Iraqi offshoot of the Mujaddidiyya), the Naqshbadi Uwaysiyya (forms of which exist in India, Pakistan, and Turkey), and the Naqshbandi Haqqanis. The Haqqanis are really controversial because their shaykhs are good friends with the oppressors of Islam throughout the world. The Haqqanis are fake Naqshbandis. Yursil on this forum is a Haqqani, which is why I hate him with every fibre of my being. I actually have alot of respect for the real Naqshbandis though.

9. The actual formal fiqh definition of "Bidah" as per sunni theology

The Hanafis, Shafi'is, Malikis, and Hanbalis all define it somewhat differently.

[/quote]

[Liam_Saiful_Din]

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

1. Barelvi Sunni
Group founded by a dude named Ahmed Rida Khan, who based his deen on mostly folklore and tradition of his fathers. Majorly influenced by sufiyyah while never refering to any of the Prophet's ahadith.



8. Naqshabandi
One of the many sufi tareeqas which have strayed from the Sunnah. Don't know any details about them, and frankly don't care to know. The Prophet (s) said: There is nothing in this dunya that brings you closer to Jannah, except that I have informed you of it. And there is nothing in this dunya that brings you closer to Jahannam, except that I have warned you agaisnt it(Musnad ash-Shafi'ee and others). To accept waht these tariqas teach would be to deny that the Prophet (s) completed the deen, as they enjoin and prohibit things which weren't by Allah. Allah says: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." [5:4]

I find it quite amusing that a scholar you do not agree with you refer to as "dude". Your age shows with that very first sentence. I also find it quite amusing that you claim tariqas (in this case the Naqshbandi) have "strayed from the sunnah", yet you claim right after that you "know nothing about them nor do you care to know". It would appear your knowledge is not true knowledge rather it is other's opinions regurgitated from your lips. Not to try and pick, but it's a very grave sin to talk about and pass judgment on that which you know nothing about...is it not?

[Shahnawaz]

Originally Posted by Liam_Saiful_Din

I find it quite amusing that a scholar you do not agree with you refer to as "dude". Your age shows with that very first sentence. I also find it quite amusing that you claim tariqas (in this case the Naqshbandi) have "strayed from the sunnah", yet you claim right after that you "know nothing about them nor do you care to know". It would appear your knowledge is not true knowledge rather it is other's opinions regurgitated from your lips. Not to try and pick, but it's a very grave sin to talk about and pass judgment on that which you know nothing about...is it not?

Well I know a little. And that little is far from the Islam of the Salaf.
I just don't know in the depth that brother Abdul Karim seems to. I don't think I need to.

And regarding Ahmed Rida, well our differences are so vast that "dude" is probably the best word I have in my mind to refer to him. Trust me, its a matter of Tawhid and Shirk we're dealing with.
And by the way, this man had no qualms on declaring Takfir on anyone differing with him, so compared to him I've been quite gracious.

[rahat]

Salaam,

Some of you have been giving somewhat biased answers. I understand if you have strong emotions, but I'm just looking for objective facts.

thanks for the answers so far.

also to clarify: you cannot be shia and be Mutazilah in aqeedah. you can only be jafari in aqeedah and fiqh, there is no alternative option. not chest beating, but its just the literal definition of formal shiaism.

-
rahat

[Shahnawaz]

er I've given you the position of, I what I know to be, Ahlus Sunnah.

And regarding what you said about Shia aqeeda, maybe you don't call youself mu'tazila but I think thats the equivelint of it, right?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by rahat

5, Difference between Salafi and Wahabi, if any (im under the impression that salafi is the PC term for wahabi) and when eact sect (if they actually are different groups) actually arose/split

Both are misleading terms..however Salafi denotes following the ways of the Salaf (companians)

"wahabis" in the time of Shaykh ibn adb-al-wahab at tamimi preferred to be called muwahhidin (monothiests). The Salafi/Muwahhidiyyah movement wasnt really seen as a new movement at the time..it was a revival of what ibn abd-al-wahab viewed Islam to eb, which was doing away with Bida'h practices that had infested Islam.

Personally I like the thinking behind Ibn Abd-Al-wahabs writings(going back to Islam)...but I wouldn't identify myself as a "salafi" as I take Fiqh from the Shafi'i school.


Also if you want actual fiqh definitions its best to ask a Faqih not us plebs.

[Jack_Sparrow]

There are many definitions of wahabis. Most people who tell you they don't exist have something to hide. Here's my definition:


Wahhabis as Salafis: deceptive semantics

Wahhabis differentiate themselves from orthodox Sunnis by labeling themselves Salafis, which refers to the word salaf – the time period in which the early Muslims lived in the first 300 years after the Hijrat, or emigration, of Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Medina in 622. The Companions (Sahaba), those who followed the Companions (Tabi’een), and those who followed those who followed the Companions (Taba al-Tabi’een) who lived in the time period of the Salaf are exemplars par excellence of what Muslims should be, as Prophet Muhammad had praised these Muslims as being the best of Muslims. Therefore, it has been the aim of every Muslim since the time of Prophet Muhammad to adhere to and to follow the footsteps of the adherents of the salaf. This means that when a Wahhabi calls himself a Salafi, he claims to be a genuine follower of pristine Islam. This, however, is far from the truth.

The Wahhabis, by calling themselves Salafis, not only claim to follow the footsteps of the early Muslims, but also use semantics to fool and allure less informed Muslims into accepting Wahhabism. Wahhabis say, “You must follow the Muslims of the Salaf.” (This is undoubtedly true.) Then the Wahhabi semantics: “Therefore you must be a Salafi and nothing else. Following anything else means you’re following a path that is different from the Muslims of the Salaf.” By such deceptive semantics, the less informed Muslims believe that Salafis must truly represent the pristine interpretations of the early Muslims of the Salaf. After all, the word Salafi sounds like Salaf, so it must truly be representative of it. Far from it. When the less informed goes beyond semantics and blind faith and investigates what a Salafi believes, the truth unveiled is that the understanding of Salafis (Wahhabis) is different and contradictory to the understanding and positions of the pious Muslims who lived in the Salaf.



Wahhabis as neo-Kharijites

The Wahhabis are especially notorious for reviving the ways of the Khawarij (or Kharijites). They originated in the time of the caliphates of Osman and Ali. They were the earliest group of fanatics who separated themselves from the Muslim community. They arose in opposition to Ali – Prophet Muhammad’s son-in-law – because of his willingness to arbitrate with Mu’awiyah, governor of Damascus at that time, over the issue of the caliphate. The Khawarij, meaning “those who exited,” slung accusations of blasphemy against Ali– and those who followed them – saying that the Qur’an, and not them, had the ultimate authority in the matter. Ibn al-Jawzi, an orthodox Sunni scholar, in his book Talbis Iblis (The Devil’s Deception) under the chapter heading “A Mention of the Devil’s Delusion upon the Kharijites,” says that Dhu’l-Khuwaysira al-Tamimi was the first Kharijite in Islam and that “[h]is fault was to be satisfied with his own view; had he paused he would have realized that there is no view superior to that of Allah’s Messenger…” Furthermore, the orthodox Sunni scholar Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi discusses the Kharijite rebellions and their bloody massacres of tens of thousands of Muslims in one of his books. He explicitly mentions the Azariqa, one of the most atrocious Kharijite movements led by Nafi’ ibn al-Azraq from the tribe of Banu Hanifa – the same tribe where the heretic Musaylima the Prevaricator (or Liar) who claimed prophethood alongside Prophet Muhammad came from. Just as the Khawarij threw accusations of blasphemy on Ali, Wahhabis throw accusations of blasphemy against Sunnis and Shi’ites.