[sally]

Originally Posted by Budmano786

see the way I see it, girls have the upper hand....if theres a guy they REALLY like and he's already married, they can still go after him...but if theres a girl that a guy really likes and she's already married, she's unapproachable

that's borderline inappropriate.... ummm, it's not honorable in the least to 'go after' a married man. and usually guys don't look twice at married women.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sally

that's borderline inappropriate.... ummm, it's not honorable in the least to 'go after' a married man. and usually guys don't look twice at married women.

That's likely (and unfortunately) an incorrect assumption.

[sally]

Originally Posted by Variable

That's likely (and unfortunately) an incorrect assumption.

i meant as in consider them for marriage, at least. they might 'look' at her...which is still disgusting but...at the end of the day, her loyalties still lie with another man.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sally

i meant as in consider them for marriage, at least. they might 'look' at her...which is still disgusting but...at the end of the day, her loyalties still lie with another man.

If they thought they were allowed to they might. In any case, whenever this topic comes up, and guys - despite their assurances one woman is enough for them - go on to press the point that it's their right to have more than one wife... and take every opportunity to disparage women who would feel uncomfortable if it were to ever be an issue in their own relationships.... I'm left with a, sickened? feeling that I have a hard time articulating.

[sally]

Originally Posted by Variable

If they thought they were allowed to they might. In any case, whenever this topic comes up, and guys - despite their assurances one woman is enough for them - go on to press the point that it's their right to have more than one wife... and take every opportunity to disparage women who would feel uncomfortable if it were to ever be an issue in their own relationships.... I'm left with a, sickened? feeling that I have a hard time articulating.

men and women are different.

a man would never, and should never (evolutionarily speaking even) be okay with sharing a wife...

women are more relaxed. yes, envy is a part of that sort of relationship. but in the end, the majority of the worlds societies have considered and practiced polygyny as a norm, and not the other way around.

anyway, you're basically saying that for a guy to defend his right that he can have more than one wife is as disgusting as a guy looking at a married woman lustfully........?

i dont know. i'm not perfect. it does bother me sometimes when guys, especially on islamica, (since it's the only place i've ever seen this right defended to death, but i think it's because a lot of people kid around too..)

anyway, it does bother women. especially when the guys make insensitive comments. but, at the end of the day, i still follow the teachings of the Prophet PBUH. i'm still muslim. and i have to accept whether it is or isnt in my comfort zone, whatever is and isnt permissable.

i think it takes a lot of woman-courage to be able to let your husband take another wife. i have a lot of respect for women who are okay with that or have to go through that and who ultimately have good to say about it and even if they have a choice to step out of such a relationship, they dont.

in the past, i would react extremely emotionally to this concept. it didnt make sense to me. but astaghfirullah. i have ultimately begun to accept it as a reality that does occur..and yes, there are positive examples out there. it doesn't have to happen to me. but can it? yes..there's always a possibility. it's better to accept it than to deny it all along. if it happens to you, then you're at least not dumbfounded.

ive learnt to acknowledge that the nature of man is very different. and that the nature of woman has has the inherent potential and capability of being that incredibly courageous and tolerant. it is a gift from Allah swt. we are inherently nurturing and forgiving and accepting. and strong hearted. alhamdulillah for that.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sally

men and women are different.

a man would never, and should never (evolutionarily speaking even) be okay with sharing a wife..

women are more relaxed. yes, envy is a part of that sort of relationship. but in the end, the majority of the worlds societies have considered and practiced polygyny as a norm, and not the other way around.

While I don't have a problem if all parties involved are consenting (in the case of children it's pretty hard to do however)

But I don't buy these pre-disposition arguments about how it's natural for a man to have many child-bearers. And to me it doesn't mean a whole lot whether most socieities have practiced polygamy or not - most have practiced slavery. It seems to me it's more of a situation in which one powerful element impresses on a less powerful element an outlook that's favourable to the former, presenting it as though it's 'normal' and 'natural' order of things... whereas it's really just a matter of the powerful taking full advantage of their position.

anyway, you're basically saying that for a guy to defend his right that he can have more than one wife is as disgusting as a guy looking at a married woman lustfully........?

No not at all. It leaves me with something of a sick feeling to see males persist in pressing the fact that it's their divine right. And insist on doing so even when the girls involved in the conversation are saying that they personally wouldn't be comfortable with it in their own relationships, at which point they're disparaged in a variety of ways.

[sally]

Originally Posted by Variable

While I don't have a problem if all parties involved are consenting (in the case of children it's pretty hard to do however)

But I don't buy these pre-disposition arguments about how it's natural for a man to have many child-bearers. And to me it doesn't mean a whole lot whether most socieities have practiced polygamy or not - most have practiced slavery. It seems to me it's more of a situation in which one powerful element impresses on a less powerful element an outlook that's favourable to the former, presenting it as though it's 'normal' and 'natural' order of things... whereas it's really just a matter of the powerful taking full advantage of their position.

i'm sure if i went off on the whole why it's permissable in islam reasoning, you would lose interest because it's been posted so many times on this forum.

marriage is big in islam. it's supported by lots of rulings and there is concrete and explicit commentary shedding light on the misfortune of the person who fails to live up to his or her duties. there are lots of obligations and bindings that come with the islamic marital contract. one of those is that a man is obligated to protect and provide for his wife. there is no way out of it. he's answerable to the Almighty for causing the slightest inconvenience due to failing to do his part. it's huge, no hanky panky business.

anyway, there's always a deeper reasoning behind why things are and arent the way they are. The Divine knows much more than you and i. there's no point denying that much. our brains are limited. but perhaps it is best understood this way: polygyny became permissable when women (daughters, wives, mothers) became fatherless/mahramless/sonless/husbandless...their kids without fathers or any other male guardians. it didn thelp that the majority of these women didnt have means of sustaining themselves financially.. and so, in order to provide these women with a solid means of support, polygyny became the norm? i mean, sure, a random man can provide for a random woman, but he can also drop out of the ballgame any time he wants. he has nothing binding him to his word. so then, that responsibility doesnt hold much weight for a woman who really needs permanent support to raise her kids and keep food on the table.

and hence, polygyny is not light on the man either. it's a test really. if it's hard for the woman, it's hard on the man too. it's sometimes impossible for a man to understand the nature of a woman completely. and then sometimes he might but he'll lack insight on the proper way to deal with her, etc. so imagine having to deal with more than one wife? providing for more than one wife, more than 2 kids, etc? oh yeah, and then you have to answer to Allah, dont forget. bummer.

don't know. the way things look right now (world food crises and what not) ...sounds like a lot for a man to handle. esp if you live in a third world country and aren't a politician or king or prince or ...doctor? ha ha.

Originally Posted by Variable

No not at all. It leaves me with something of a sick feeling to see males persist in pressing the fact that it's their divine right. And insist on doing so even when the girls involved in the conversation are saying that they personally wouldn't be comfortable with it in their own relationships, at which point they're disparaged in a variety of ways.

does it make you about as sick, or more, to think of a man seeking out another mans wife?

anyway. i'm a woman here. and we're known to be very emotionally driven. so take it from me. yes, it is upsetting when muslim men talk about this topic insensitively. but it is important to try to seperate that attitude and the feelings that come from that attitude from what is permissable by islam. which, btw, has numerous laws that protect women, especially those in polygynous relationships.

anyway i can just sit here and talk. i have no first hand experience. and i still struggle with things sometimes. but alhamdulillah if i didnt struggle i wouldnt exactly be human. or a woman.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

out of the men that are defending this right, how many of them are married?

[sally]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

how many married men are defending their right to have a second wife?

haha, i forgot to mention that not many actually..at least none i can think of on islamica..hmmm, now some other wacky forums.. i dont know

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

lol i changed my wording, said it too many times in my head to the point it didnt make sense.

most boys are losers. esp ones like jaysh who act all big and are softies really and are putty in their beloved's hands.

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Dude, we men are way too soft to you women nowadays...just go back two generations ago, and see how things were! My grandma would not even refer to my grandfather by his name, because it was considered rude; so she would call him "mia sahab" (husband sir?) and "father of fazal (their first born son)."
!

Ummmmmmmm she was his wife, its ok to call him by his first name, even out of respect that sounds a little ridiculous. I think men have just been extremely insecure over time, and its just gotten worse and worse.

[Budmano786]

Originally Posted by sally

that's borderline inappropriate.... ummm, it's not honorable in the least to 'go after' a married man. and usually guys don't look twice at married women.

borderline? I would say its highly inappropriate...if I were being SERIOUS...it was a joke...maybe next time I'll add a smiley

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sally

i'm sure if i went off on the whole why it's permissable in islam reasoning, you would lose interest because it's been posted so many times on this forum.

marriage is big in islam. it's supported by lots of rulings and there is concrete and explicit commentary shedding light on the misfortune of the person who fails to live up to his or her duties. there are lots of obligations and bindings that come with the islamic marital contract. one of those is that a man is obligated to protect and provide for his wife. there is no way out of it. he's answerable to the Almighty for causing the slightest inconvenience due to failing to do his part. it's huge, no hanky panky business.

anyway, there's always a deeper reasoning behind why things are and arent the way they are. The Divine knows much more than you and i. there's no point denying that much. our brains are limited. but perhaps it is best understood this way: polygyny became permissable when women (daughters, wives, mothers) became fatherless/mahramless/sonless/husbandless...their kids without fathers or any other male guardians. it didn thelp that the majority of these women didnt have means of sustaining themselves financially.. and so, in order to provide these women with a solid means of support, polygyny became the norm? i mean, sure, a random man can provide for a random woman, but he can also drop out of the ballgame any time he wants. he has nothing binding him to his word. so then, that responsibility doesnt hold much weight for a woman who really needs permanent support to raise her kids and keep food on the table.

and hence, polygyny is not light on the man either. it's a test really. if it's hard for the woman, it's hard on the man too. it's sometimes impossible for a man to understand the nature of a woman completely. and then sometimes he might but he'll lack insight on the proper way to deal with her, etc. so imagine having to deal with more than one wife? providing for more than one wife, more than 2 kids, etc? oh yeah, and then you have to answer to Allah, dont forget. bummer.

don't know. the way things look right now (world food crises and what not) ...sounds like a lot for a man to handle. esp if you live in a third world country and aren't a politician or king or prince or ...doctor? ha ha.

Well, sure. I've heard the case for polygyny from many different angles... I can even see how it would be, well charitable, if the rules of the society were severely patriarchal. And even if I don't see it as a divine practice, or even a 'natural' thing to do... if a man, and two or more women are into it then all power to them (although the kids' opinions I think count for something too, and they still wouldn't be taken into consideration)

does it make you about as sick, or more, to think of a man seeking out another mans wife?

No. I think what leaves me with the feeling is more to do with the guys who tell the girls to 'shut it' because it's their divinely sanctioned right to do so. It's almost the smug feeling coming off of them that irks me. Probably the fact that I can't find the right words to articulate it has as much to do with it.

A guy seeking out another's wife? Like actually going for her? That's just plain slimey and automatically fits into the more familiar 'detestable' category for me.