[ShahRukh]

I am accepting bayah applications insha'Allah.


All the single ladies.


Please line up.


One by one.


And get 10x the reward in Ramadan.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

You do realize that there's ikhtilaaf on this issue? Not everyone's Deobandi. Also, I do know of some Deobandi 'Ulema who allow pictures to be taken.

I am very well aware of the ikhtilaaf ...but thats not my concern. The issue is weather if these mashaikh allow their pictures to be kept in wallets for remembrance or not.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Wa alaikum assalam

Are you referring to the Ba Alawis? I've never seen any mureeds of Shaykh Habib 'Umar have his picture and they are very involved with the Shaykh and his institutions.

masalama

I know the Alawis are cool on taking pictures and making videos for educational and dawah purposes but I'm not sure if the ulema of Hadramwt allow mureeds to keep pics in their wallets.

To be honest (I am trying not to be mean here honest) that sounds like something a teenage fangirl would say about something Billy Corgan or Bob Dylan wrote. It helps to remain objective when listening to people who are trying to effectively teach you something.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

That is the funniest sheyt I've read in religion section. I have to agree 100% with your post bro.




And yes, Words of Ulema pierce through your heart not because of the Shaykh, but because of Allah's mercy.

[amina9183]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

There is a difference between developing admiration for someone and personal infatuation.

All of which is totally normal and understandable, considering they are blood relatives that you have known your whole life and interact with on a personal level every day.

You obviously cannot tell the difference between familial bonds and infatuation.

To be honest (I am trying not to be mean here honest) that sounds like something a teenage fangirl would say about something Billy Corgan or Bob Dylan wrote. It helps to remain objective when listening to people who are trying to effectively teach you something.

Actually, yes you can. Just as a math teacher educates you on essential mathematical concepts needed in both your daily life and your profession, a shiekh educates you on what do and what not to do in your daily life based on the Quran and the Sunnah (not sure what the other sources are called?). A teacher is a teacher, there really is no other way to put it.

And therein lies the problem. I hate to bring it up again, but what happened with that shiekh and his female student is a perfect example of why such "relationships" and childish infatuations are detrimental to society in general. If these people had stayed objective in their quest for knowledge, and not swooned like a fangirl at an N'Sync concert, then perhaps such travesties would not occur.

A spouse is not the same thing a shiekh. You have sexual, intimate relations with a spouse, and you have agreed to love and cherish your spouse for your entire life. You live, eat, sleep, and do enjoyable things with your spouse. The relationships are not the same. I can understand that love goes beyond blood, but that is another topic.

Oh really, what would you consider it then? Love? Where does one draw the line in that case?

Your reasons for disagreeing have to do with your particular affiliation with a ruling in Islam. If pictures were not considered haraam, you would be all for it. Men can have infatuations with other men. Thats not unheard of, or even uncommon. Carrying another mans picture in your wallet is either infatuation or hero worship.

You draw the line where Allah draws the line. Shirk is where you draw the line. When you stop asking of Allah and (nauzubillah) start asking of your shaykh, the line is drawn. There is absolutely nothing wrong in loving a muslim brother or sister for the sake of Allah and for their piety. I mean, I even felt a little skeeved out reading what you wrote, because there is a certain love that has nothing to do with lust, and for you to compare it to "swooning" like an nsync fan kind of grosses me out. You are talking about lust, which is totally OPPOSITE to what I am talking about, which is admiration and love for the sake of piety. It is the love which we have for the sahaba and for the Prophet(saw) and Imam Abu Hanifa(rahmatullah alaih) and Imam Ghazali(rahmatullah alaih), etc. Teenage girls swooning over nsync is mostly lust. This love has NOTHING to do with that. If you are referring to the maulana ibrahim incident, then I don't think that's a reason to not love your shaykh. I think that's a reason to not be alone with them, not have casual convos with them, etc. There are plenty of girls who love their shaykh and don't have inappropriate relationships. The issue arises when the shariah stops being followed. Loving someone for their piety is not unislamic, nor does it go against the shariah.

This convo started at how its wrong to have pictures of your shaykh and now it seems you are saying its wrong to love your shaykh altogether. I'm not arguing for carrying a picture around of your shaykh. Pictures are not allowed for the very reason of shirk, so why would I argue that its ok. My reasons for not being okay with it very much do tie in with the islamic ruling, and in a way that ties in with what people said as well. All I am trying to say is that it shows love and not neccessarily worship. It *can* show worship, but that's not neccessary. I would assume love before I assume shirk or kufr.


Hero worship involves lust, as does infatuation. If the sahaba could love the Prophet(saw) then how can anyone argue that one man cannot love another man in a totally halal way? I am not comparing the Prophet(saw) to a shaykh. I am just talking about the human ability to love. The sahaba were humans just like us. How can we jump into peoples hearts and decide something is hero worship, when such a feeling involves lust? Everything is not *always* sexual. Love for the sake of piety is totally pure and void of any lust, and it exists.

You say you cant/shouldn't love your shaykh. I say you can, and if it is for the sake of Allah and void of any lust then it is fine. I LOVE hadrat aisha. Like, to unreal levels. I've never met her, I am not related to her by blood(as far as I know) and she is not involved in my day to day life. But I admire her and think she was an amazing woman mashallah. I love her to the point of like, squeaing when I tell stories about her. Every single one of my passwords has *something* to do with her. Does this mean that just because we are the same gender it is hero worship? No. There are different kinds of love in this world.

[TrentReznor858]

Amina, I could go through your post and respond to what you said, but I am too lazy. It is pretty obvious that you cannot admit that such infatuations are not only wrong, but detrimental. I wish you the best of luck.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by amina9183

You draw the line where Allah draws the line. Shirk is where you draw the line. When you stop asking of Allah and (nauzubillah) start asking of your shaykh, the line is drawn. There is absolutely nothing wrong in loving a muslim brother or sister for the sake of Allah and for their piety. I mean, I even felt a little skeeved out reading what you wrote, because there is a certain love that has nothing to do with lust, and for you to compare it to "swooning" like an nsync fan kind of grosses me out. You are talking about lust, which is totally OPPOSITE to what I am talking about, which is admiration and love for the sake of piety. It is the love which we have for the sahaba and for the Prophet(saw) and Imam Abu Hanifa(rahmatullah alaih) and Imam Ghazali(rahmatullah alaih), etc. Teenage girls swooning over nsync is mostly lust. This love has NOTHING to do with that. If you are referring to the maulana ibrahim incident, then I don't think that's a reason to not love your shaykh. I think that's a reason to not be alone with them, not have casual convos with them, etc. There are plenty of girls who love their shaykh and don't have inappropriate relationships. The issue arises when the shariah stops being followed. Loving someone for their piety is not unislamic, nor does it go against the shariah.

This convo started at how its wrong to have pictures of your shaykh and now it seems you are saying its wrong to love your shaykh altogether. I'm not arguing for carrying a picture around of your shaykh. Pictures are not allowed for the very reason of shirk, so why would I argue that its ok. My reasons for not being okay with it very much do tie in with the islamic ruling, and in a way that ties in with what people said as well. All I am trying to say is that it shows love and not neccessarily worship. It *can* show worship, but that's not neccessary. I would assume love before I assume shirk or kufr.


Hero worship involves lust, as does infatuation. If the sahaba could love the Prophet(saw) then how can anyone argue that one man cannot love another man in a totally halal way? I am not comparing the Prophet(saw) to a shaykh. I am just talking about the human ability to love. The sahaba were humans just like us. How can we jump into peoples hearts and decide something is hero worship, when such a feeling involves lust? Everything is not *always* sexual. Love for the sake of piety is totally pure and void of any lust, and it exists.

You say you cant/shouldn't love your shaykh. I say you can, and if it is for the sake of Allah and void of any lust then it is fine. I LOVE hadrat aisha. Like, to unreal levels. I've never met her, I am not related to her by blood(as far as I know) and she is not involved in my day to day life. But I admire her and think she was an amazing woman mashallah. I love her to the point of like, squeaing when I tell stories about her. Every single one of my passwords has *something* to do with her. Does this mean that just because we are the same gender it is hero worship? No. There are different kinds of love in this world.

So where do you draw the lines between love and infatuation?


You love your Shaykh just as you love your teacher. Nothing more than that. Your Shaykh is like a person who gives you directions when you're lost in downtown. Your spiritual experiences, whether they're the sweetness of emaan that takes over your heart, coolness of the eyes, or bigger spiritual experiences such as uplifting veils from your eyes, intellect, sense of hearing (in arabic, fan'a, baq'a, etc.) and the most important one is obtaining the qurb of ALlah Swt which makes a person m'omen, are all reflections of your commitment, sacrifices, and pure and sincere intentions and sunnat amaal.... which Allah swt accepts and blesses with his mercy and barakah and guides the person.

They are NOT due to "supernatural" capabilities of the Shaykh.

The Ulema can be wali'Ullah and make dua' and pray for you. But they're not supernatural heros to be kept in wallets for remembrance.

Our kalima explains it all in one line. There's NO worthy of worship except Allah, and Prophet SAW Muhammad is his messenger.

[Abu_Hind]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

I've not seen al-Azhari, Levantine, or Indian 'Ulema downgrade hadeeth as much as Salafi scholars. I didn't mean this as an insult.

I honestly think this is your misunderstanding, and the fact that you don't read "salafi" material itself. If you're honestly looking for salafi perspective on hadith grading try contacting this brother called "justabro" on IA. I think it also has to do with the fact that when we think salafi and hadith we immediately think shaykh al-albani (ra) when he is just one figure. Also many of the Azhari muhaditheen were salafi too such as shaykh Ahmad Shakir, also syrian muhaditheen other than shaykh al-albani (such as shaykh 'abd al-qadir arna'ut, and as far as I know he even did some works with sh. shu'ayb al-arna'ut).

And how can we forget the immense contribution of sub-conitnental ahl ul-hadith muhaditheen who count among some of the most important hadith scholars of last century:

Shaykh mubarakpuri (mubarakfoori) the author of tufhat al-ahwadhi, one of the most widely read sharhs of Sunan al-tirmidhi (and in the words of one Hanafi scholar "the best sharh on tirmidhi) was an ahlul hadith 'aalim.

Shaykh al-kul Mawlana nazir Ahmad.

The author of 'awn al-ma'bood etc...

These are just a few names and to say that "salafis" degrade ahadith to weak too much is a bit of generalization rooted in acrimonious attitude that exists among the 'traditionalists'.

Actually one interesting thing that I recently learnt is that the deobandi and ahle-hadith muhaditheen were students of the students of the same teacher! Maybe more on that later.

[MuslimZ]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Wa alaikum assalam

Are you referring to the Ba Alawis? I've never seen any mureeds of Shaykh Habib 'Umar have his picture and they are very involved with the Shaykh and his institutions.

masalama

ditto this. My friends that have come back from hadralmawt are some of the most-grounded, chillaxed and loving sufis I know. None of that cultish stuff. Just sincere warmth.

[Abu_Hind]

Originally Posted by amina9183

He was a political science major, and, as far as I know, did not do his PhD or anything, so he's not a doctor. He is a mufti tho mashallah. Maulana Kamal was born and raised in NY-- one of my best friends is his student and she was telling me how she met his family(parents) and all..and that he is like "us" in that his parents weren't the religious type but he turned towards the deen and got into it very deeply, so he relates to us really well. He's also pretty young, and from what I know, very close with shaykh Husain. I personally have not had too much contact with him(I am Shaykh Qureshi's student now, and before that Shaykh Ahmad, and before that for a short time Shaykh Husain). I met him a few times when I was in Pakistan, but oddly, I never met him here. He teaches at Lums University in lahore now, but he comes to NY a lot. He's awesome mashallah. I recommend you listen to his "Lowering Our Gaze" lecture--its on tasawwuf.org, u click on "khulafa" and then his name.

Not sure what else you wanna know. Are you interested in the tariqa? Like I said, I don't know all that much about him. Some how most of the sisters end up being his students, because I guess he is better with relating to us than the others, but I am not his student. I've had very limited interaction with him. I sat in on his classes at Lums--hes incredibly funny mashallah. And like our other shuyukh, he just has this awesome way of explaining things. When he speaks, its like an arrow to your heart. our shuyukh. They're all so great mashallah. May allah preserve them and be pleased with them always. Ameen.

Definitely go to the tasawwuf site tho if u haven't already. There's a short bio on there, and you can listen to lectures.

Oh thank you very much. Didn't know he wasn't a "PhD" and only a Lecturer. Well I'm interested in sulook in a way, but it's hard to explain. I primarily asked because he is teaching one of the classes my sister is taking at LUMS, and she was quite impressed by him.

[amina9183]

Originally Posted by ShahRukh

So where do you draw the lines between love and infatuation?


You love your Shaykh just as you love your teacher. Nothing more than that. Your Shaykh is like a person who gives you directions when you're lost in downtown. Your spiritual experiences, whether they're the sweetness of emaan that takes over your heart, coolness of the eyes, or bigger spiritual experiences such as uplifting veils from your eyes, intellect, sense of hearing (in arabic, fan'a, baq'a, etc.) and the most important one is obtaining the qurb of ALlah Swt which makes a person m'omen, are all reflections of your commitment, sacrifices, and pure and sincere intentions and sunnat amaal.... which Allah swt accepts and blesses with his mercy and barakah and guides the person.

They are NOT due to "supernatural" capabilities of the Shaykh.

The Ulema can be wali'Ullah and make dua' and pray for you. But they're not supernatural heros to be kept in wallets for remembrance.

Our kalima explains it all in one line. There's NO worthy of worship except Allah, and Prophet SAW Muhammad is his messenger.

Do I not speak english? Like, seriously. I'm starting to think I'm really bad at explaining myself. I don't recall EVER saying shuyukh have supernatural abilities. Did something I say imply that? Because if so I did not mean it at all. When I said his words motivate me to be better, I was not implying that he has supernatural abilities. But rather the sincerity and love for Allah in his heart is almost contageous. This is why Islam emphasises the importance of good company. Yes, they are influencing you through the mercy of Allah, but Islam accepts the influence of company and that people can motivate you to good or evil(the fact that it is all by the will of Allah is a given)

Secondly, I can not believe you people forced me to dictionary.com at 4 am, but here it goes:

in·fat·u·a·tion *
A foolish, unreasoning, or extravagant passion or attraction

The difference between the love I spoke of before(which you questioned earlier in your post) is that there is no LUST or PASSION involved. The minute you feel lust for a person other than your spouse, whether you are male or female and they are male or female, it is haraam. Why can people not differentiate between LOVE for the sake of ALLAH/PIETY and lust???? Everything is not sexual. Your draw the line where Allah draws the line, like I said before. Infatuation is based on passion/lust/attraction, and what I am talking about is based on respect and admiration. They are two different things.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by amina9183

The minute you feel lust for a person other than your spouse, whether you are male or female and they are male or female, it is haraam.

It's haraam to feel the lust or haraam to act on it?

[amina9183]

Originally Posted by Timbit

It's haraam to feel the lust or haraam to act on it?

Sorry, I shouldn't have said it like that. As far as I know, it is haraam to act on it, but the minute you feel lust for a person, you shouldn't have anything to do with them. There is that initial thought right? Which is like the "first glance" I guess, but if you continue to think about them, etc then I think that's the point where it becomes sinful. In the context(referring to ones shaykh) saying it becomes haraam I just meant that is where one draws the line. Should have been more clear, sorry. Story of my life

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by amina9183

Sorry, I shouldn't have said it like that. As far as I know, it is haraam to act on it, but the minute you feel lust for a person, you shouldn't have anything to do with them. There is that initial thought right? Which is like the "first glance" I guess, but if you continue to think about them, etc then I think that's the point where it becomes sinful. In the context(referring to ones shaykh) saying it becomes haraam I just meant that is where one draws the line. Should have been more clear, sorry. Story of my life

Seen!

EDIT: So if you feel lust for your shaykh, you should... disassociate immediately? I'm thinking it would be wrong to tell them about it.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by amina9183

@ the gay thing.
But in this case...I don't know. In my experience girls are more careful because they don't want people misunderstanding. I know that a lot of girls are a little concerned about potential husbands possibly having issues with how much they love their shaykh. Brothers seem to put their devotion out there more. They are more likely to verbally say things about how they'll never leave the place where their shaykhs feet are, etc. Girls tend to not say stuff like that, regardless of if they feel it or not, just because people may misunderstand.

Also, just a quick question about pictures: I was under the impression that there are differences of opinion regarding taking pictures, but not about actual printed pictures? Here is what I know: there is one group of people that say pictures are haraam, printed or otherwise. The other group say that you can take them with digital cameras as long as you don't print them, because as long as it is being stored in the camera or on a computer it is just lights. When you turn it off, the "picture" is gone. But once its printed, it is there forever + the hadith about angels entering the home. Is there a 3rd group with a different opinion in regards to printing the picture? And if so, what is their reasoning?


In any case, I don't see how that's any type of worship. People carry pictures of their children in their wallet. Its intense love, not worship.

On SunniPath it says you can't hang pictures in a way that glorifies them so generally, it's ok to have a picture as long as it's not hung in honor (which is most pictures). But like if you put a picture on a run where people walk on, then it's ok (ie, so pictures are not inherently haram according to that opinion).

This is the fatwa my husband pulled up I can't seem to find it myself though. I'll ask him for it.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by amina9183

Do I not speak english? Like, seriously. I'm starting to think I'm really bad at explaining myself. I don't recall EVER saying shuyukh have supernatural abilities. Did something I say imply that? Because if so I did not mean it at all. When I said his words motivate me to be better, I was not implying that he has supernatural abilities. But rather the sincerity and love for Allah in his heart is almost contageous. This is why Islam emphasises the importance of good company. Yes, they are influencing you through the mercy of Allah, but Islam accepts the influence of company and that people can motivate you to good or evil(the fact that it is all by the will of Allah is a given)

Secondly, I can not believe you people forced me to dictionary.com at 4 am, but here it goes:

in·fat·u·a·tion *
A foolish, unreasoning, or extravagant passion or attraction

The difference between the love I spoke of before(which you questioned earlier in your post) is that there is no LUST or PASSION involved. The minute you feel lust for a person other than your spouse, whether you are male or female and they are male or female, it is haraam. Why can people not differentiate between LOVE for the sake of ALLAH/PIETY and lust???? Everything is not sexual. Your draw the line where Allah draws the line, like I said before. Infatuation is based on passion/lust/attraction, and what I am talking about is based on respect and admiration. They are two different things.

Yeah I understand where you're coming from...I have many friends who're mureeds of different mashaikhs belonging to different tariqas. and i've seen people (and some of my own friends) respecting and loving their shaykhs to some outrageous extents....it's not something new to me. However, extravagant respect and admiration leads to glorification. And keeping a picture of a Shaykh in your wallet is something that leads to glorification. And glorification leads to shirk. Therefore islam prohibits pathways leading to shirk. Allah swt clearly says stay away from doubtful things.


Why dont you ask either Shaykh hussain or Shaykh Ahmed about this? They're both deobandi Alims, I'm pretty sure you'll get a whooping fatwa...