[divine_quran]

Hi Guys

Contrary to the teachings of the Quran which prohibits any division of Muslims into sects, they have been subject to division and disintegration for the last few centuries, which is a result of this as a natural consequence of predecessor worship. Difference of opinion does occur among human beings and did occur even amongst the companions of the Messenger but they did not allow themselves to be divided into sects. But since the start of ancestral worship, the followers of particular Imams took their respective Imams to be infallible and assumed that the truth lay they said in matters of life. In other words all the others, besides them (the Imams) said was mere falsehood. This divided the Muslims among themselves and every sect became content with what the Imams gave them. From then onwards each sect struggled hard to prove that they themselves were right and others were wrong. They became devoid of tolerance and also of self effort to find out what was right and what was wrong. Thus they were not prepared to hear a word against their own particular belief not because they had good reason to do so but because anything going against the belief of their ancestors was impossible for them to tolerate. The differences between the sects are not necessarily on basic issues; even the differences on petty things have separated them from each other. The curious aspect of this situation lies in the fact that the laws of Fiqa are now the vestigial remnants of the Muslim rules from the past. Not a single Muslim or Islamic State based on Islamic principles which exist today but the differences based on the Fiqa laws continue to exist. A lot of energy is being wasted to keep up differences, in a same way least effort is being made to revive the Islamic state.

Cheers
Nawaz
Religion Islam

[rahat]

Salaam,

I do not believe the Qur'an discourages being a member of a sect, I believe the Quran discourages sectarianism.

The difference?

I believe the Quran advises us to not divide ourselves just for the sake of being different, but if we have profound philosophical or moral beliefs, to stick to them.

I mean, if all sects are bad, what of the hadith from the Holy Prophet[listed below]?

"My Ummah will be divided in to 72 sects, only one of which will be Saved".

Also, I believe your confusing multiple concepts into one.

The belief that Allah's representatives on Earth are Masoom is the underlying belief set for a great deal of Muslims, across multiple "sects", and is established within the Holy Quran.

-
rahat

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by rahat

Salaam,

I do not believe the Qur'an discourages being a member of a sect, I believe the Quran discourages sectarianism.

The difference?

I believe the Quran advises us to not divide ourselves just for the sake of being different, but if we have profound philosophical or moral beliefs, to stick to them.

I mean, if all sects are bad, what of the hadith from the Holy Prophet[listed below]?

"My Ummah will be divided in to 72 sects, only one of which will be Saved".

Also, I believe your confusing multiple concepts into one.

The belief that Allah's representatives on Earth are Masoom is the underlying belief set for a great deal of Muslims, across multiple "sects", and is established within the Holy Quran.

-
rahat

Indeed, what about that Hadith you wonder.

It serves its purpose, doesnt it?

[ameen]

Originally Posted by rahat

I mean, if all sects are bad, what of the hadith from the Holy Prophet[listed below]?

"My Ummah will be divided in to 72 sects, only one of which will be Saved".

salam,

The Qur'an condemns sectarianism altogether, and expects Muslims to be following a unitary sectless religion based on the Qur'an. That Hadith however gives Muslims an excuse to take a passive attitude towards sectarianism, and treats it as if it's ok to be divided as long as you think you're following the right one.

[Dubai3000]

This is the thing i dont understand. They islam is a easy religion and God is fair, yet dividing us in to 72 sects and only sending one to heaven seems like such a injustice.

[rahat]

The concept of sectarianism is different in english than it is in the Quran.

The Quran admonishes the type of behavior that is intended only for the purposes of divisiveness but praises that there are different groups.

The Quran says "We have created you in [many] different tribes so that you may know eachother" and also praises the Prophet Ibrahim as from amongst the "Shia" of Prophet Nuh.

Just because they're a group does not mean they're engaging in sectarianism. I mean if you look at Sunnism, you could call it one big sect, or you could differentiate between Shafis and Malikis and Bahrelvis and Deobanadis, or you could even say that Sunnism is not a sect at all, but that the word "sect" is reserved for groups like Al Qaeda who may comprise multiple different belief sets, but are united in their efforts to cause "sectarianism".

Anyways, I don't have the answers, but its a matter for analysis, not finger pointing and jumping to conclusions.

-
rahat

[shadha]

Rahat: The Quran says "We have created you in [many] different tribes so that you may know eachother"

How do you relate a tribe to religious sects?

Rahat: Just because they're a group does not mean they're engaging in sectarianism. I mean if you look at Sunnism, you could call it one big sect, or you could differentiate between Shafis and Malikis and Bahrelvis and Deobanadis, or you could even say that Sunnism is not a sect at all, but that the word "sect" is reserved for groups like Al Qaeda who may comprise multiple different belief sets, but are united in their efforts to cause "sectarianism".

I'm against the term Sunnah all together.

Either you're Muslim or you're not, the end. Allah, swt, did not call on people to label themselves 'Sunni Muslim' or 'Malaki Muslim' or 'Shia Muslim' or 'Ahmadiyya Muslim' or whatever other group title one could come up with. Then you have the stupid people who murder each other over these so-called religious sects. Unquestionably ridiculous.

All manmade and totally contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an.


shadha-

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by shadha

Rahat: The Quran says "We have created you in [many] different tribes so that you may know eachother"

How do you relate a tribe to religious sects?

Rahat: Just because they're a group does not mean they're engaging in sectarianism. I mean if you look at Sunnism, you could call it one big sect, or you could differentiate between Shafis and Malikis and Bahrelvis and Deobanadis, or you could even say that Sunnism is not a sect at all, but that the word "sect" is reserved for groups like Al Qaeda who may comprise multiple different belief sets, but are united in their efforts to cause "sectarianism".

I'm against the term Sunnah all together.

Either you're Muslim or you're not, the end. Allah, swt, did not call on people to label themselves 'Sunni Muslim' or 'Malaki Muslim' or 'Shia Muslim' or 'Ahmadiyya Muslim' or whatever other group title one could come up with. Then you have the stupid people who murder each other over these so-called religious sects. Unquestionably ridiculous.

All manmade and totally contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an.


shadha-

i wish there were more muslims like you on this site

[ShamilB]

Originally Posted by shadha

I'm against the term Sunnah all together.

In a famous hadith the Prophet (SAW) said "I leave behind me two things. You will never go astray if you hold fast to them: the Quran and my Sunnah".

How can you say that when the Prophet (SAW) himself has used the term Sunnah many times?

[shadha]

ShamilB: In a famous hadith the Prophet (SAW) said "I leave behind me two things. You will never go astray if you hold fast to them: the Quran and my Sunnah".
How can you say that when the Prophet (SAW) himself has used the term Sunnah many times

Easily.

Look at the Hadith you posted-- Qur'an AND Sunnah...why do you guys only label yourselves according to the latter? Why aren't you guys Qur'ani's? Or why didn't you guys combine both Qur'an and Sunnah, to becoming Qur'annis?

Maybe I should have clarified my comment a bit more, for it wasn't intended to mean that I was against the Sunnah in whole, but against people dividing themselves into different sects and labeling themselves, which I'm sure my post explained but oki.


shadha-

[ameen]

Originally Posted by ShamilB

In a famous hadith the Prophet (SAW) said "I leave behind me two things. You will never go astray if you hold fast to them: the Quran and my Sunnah".

salam,

The Prophet's last sermon is reported in different Hadith, some of which say that the Prophet said: 'follow Qur'an and Sunnah', but there are others which say that he said 'Hold on to the Book of Allah, and you will never go astray.' These are reported in Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Abu Dawud 11/56 (check this link for reference: http://www.irfi.org/general/history_of_hadiths). This is clearly a contradiction in the Hadith about what the Prophet said, but given this contradiction, and because Allah emphasises on following the Revelation, it only makes sense that the Prophet reminded Muslims to 'stick to the Qur'an' in his final sermon.

wasalam

[AceOfHearts]

I am so glad to see Shadhas post, may Allah increase her in wisdom.
Alhamdulillah.

Indeed, three reports of the final sermon. You pick and chose whch one you want to go and nerrate to everyone:

Version 1) "I leave with you Qur'an and Sunnah."
Version 2) "I leave with you Qur'an and Ahl al-bayt"
Version 3) "I leave for you the Qur'an, you shall uphold it."

If you're a Sunni, it would probably be No.1, as ShamilB chose. If you are a Shia, it would probably be no. 2.

I however, will not point at any of those Hadiths since none of them are reliable (since there are three) now any can be false. But it is aparent from reading the Qur'an which one is the likely one the Prophet would have stated. Anybody who reads the Qur'an can conclude the Prophet would have only commanded people to adhere to the Qur'an, the Book for which he struggled so much to ensure its preservation. Which Hadith did the Prophet really say? Perhaps it is over-due we really took the Qur'an as a "Criterion" ("Furqan", 3:4) to judge this matter:

“This Book has been sent down to you [Prophet] – let there be no anxiety in your heart about it – so that you may use it to give warning and to remind the believers: ‘FOLLOW WHAT HAS BEEN SENT DOWN FROM YOUR LORD (ie. the Qur'an): DO NOT FOLLOW OTHER MASTERS BESIDE HIM, HOW SELDOM YOU TAKE HEED!’ ” [Qur’an 7:2]

'[Say], 'Shall I seek any judge other than God, when it is He who has sent down the Scripture, CLEARLY EXPLAINED/FULLY DETAILED, for you [people]?' Those to whom We gave the Scripture know that this is revealed by your Lord [Prophet] with the truth, so do not be one of those who doubt. The words of your Lord are COMPLETE in their truth and justice. Nothing can change His words - He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing." [Qur’an 6:114-116]

Surely, THE ONE WHO DECREED THE QUR'AN TO YOU will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say: "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray." [Qur’an 28:85]

This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, A GUIDE for the righteous. [Qur'an 2:2]

Unfortunately, almost all the practicing Muslims around me know very little of the Qur'an, though they speak very enthusiastically of their scholars and Hadiths. What a terrible scenario it is today! They think they found the true way, while they remain ignorent to the contents of the Qur'an. A depressing scenario indeed. If only mankind would pay heed.

And We have cited in this Quran every example for the people. But man was always most argumentative.” [Qur’an 18:54]

They quote certain Verses which they find inspirational, or proves a point which may or may not have Qur'anic basis. A terrible state of the world.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by shadha

ShamilB: In a famous hadith the Prophet (SAW) said "I leave behind me two things. You will never go astray if you hold fast to them: the Quran and my Sunnah".
How can you say that when the Prophet (SAW) himself has used the term Sunnah many times

Easily.

Look at the Hadith you posted-- Qur'an AND Sunnah...why do you guys only label yourselves according to the latter? Why aren't you guys Qur'ani's? Or why didn't you guys combine both Qur'an and Sunnah, to becoming Qur'annis?

Maybe I should have clarified my comment a bit more, for it wasn't intended to mean that I was against the Sunnah in whole, but against people dividing themselves into different sects and labeling themselves, which I'm sure my post explained but oki.


shadha-

I agree with you on this. I am not against the sunnah but I am against the blind following of certain people or certain groups.


We are Msulims lets keep it that way.


However I agree with Rahat on one point, the idea of difference and it being a good thing in some aspects.

I also knew this would turn into a Anti Hadith topic.

[rahat]

Salaam,

A few housekeeping things:

1. "We have created you in different tribes so that you may know one another"

Most translators actually use the word "groups" instead of tribes. Some don't, but the meaning is really the same. How many "tribes" do you know of in the world today? Obviously Allah is referring to different groups.

2. The only Sahih version of the Hadith of two weighty things is in Sahih Muslim. Here is the link.

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

In this version it refers to the two "weighty things" as the Quran and Ahlul Bayt. There is no hadith in any of Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Tirmidhi, Sunan Abu Dawud, Mutawatta Malik (i.e. any book ranked as "Sahih" by Sunni scholars) that ranks the "Quran and Sunnah" version as Sahih.

That link also has searchable versions of those books, and so you can verify by yourself that no alternative version exists.

I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but thats just what my personal research has shown. I'm just pointing it out.

For you Quran only people, read my original post.

Being in a sect is praised in some circumstances (i.e the "Shia of Nuh") but being sectarian is clearly admonished. Please pay attention to the difference - its openly in the Quran.

For being "Quran only" types, y'all really dont read the Quran that intensely sometimes.

-
rahat

[shadha]

rahat: Most translators actually use the word "groups" instead of tribes. Some don't, but the meaning is really the same. How many "tribes" do you know of in the world today? Obviously Allah is referring to different groups.

Groups of what?

Or is 'tribes' used as a replacement of 'races'?


shadha-