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The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Old 10-31-2007, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by Songbird View Post
OK.

So why did you say this in another thread?
i said it doesnt mean beat, which is what many ppl try and associate it with.

hit and beat are NOT the same thing
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by nooni View Post
i said it doesnt mean beat, which is what many ppl try and associate it with.

hit and beat are NOT the same thing
Ukhti, I was born and raised in an English speaking country.

I hate to tell you this but they're both much of a muchness.

Beating is hitting.

You beat a dog, you're hitting it. And to paraphrase *you* - no ifs, no buts.
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

i know english as well as you do. and i live and have been raised in an enlish speaking country.

beating is a form of hitting, but there are different forms of hit.
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by nooni View Post
i know english as well as you do. and i live and have been raised in an enlish speaking country.

beating is a form of hitting, but there are different forms of hit.
Good God, you are funny.

Hang on, let me re-read this again:

Quote:
beating is a form of hitting, but there are different forms of hit
Nope, I can't. I shall be a good girl and refrain.

Listen, there's only so many times I wish to bang my head against this brick wall and this is becoming way too mind-numbing to say the least.

P.S it's English.
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songbird View Post
Good God, you are funny.

Hang on, let me re-read this again:



Nope, I can't. I shall be a good girl and refrain.

Listen, there's only so many times I wish to bang my head against this brick wall and this is becoming way too mind-numbing to say the least.

P.S it's English.
blv what u want.

in my opinion, hitting and beating are two different things
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:45 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

OK, c u l8tr.
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Old 11-01-2007, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooni View Post
blv what u want.

in my opinion, hitting and beating are two different things
I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't think it's about opinions. Perhaps in your opinion the words mean two different things. But linguistically, I think, they mean the same thing, more or less.

You can translate 9'araba to mean hit or beat ... but in Arabic, the word is not 9afa3a or la6ama. It is 9'arabah.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

Beat generally implies repetition of the action, whereas strike/hit is (or can be) only one. You could say for example ضرب متكرر (repeated striking), but on its own I always was taught that it was singular in nature. Especially because it is فعل.

I have no idea what all these numbers are for above.

dawood
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by dezhen View Post
I have no idea what all these numbers are for above.

dawood


9 = ص

ض = '9

ط = 6
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

Songbird: Yeah, I've read up on the subject, but honestly, these are all weak arguments. Okay, the Prophet never hit anybody... so then why is it allowed? The Sunnah doesn't override the Qur'an.

And I have the same questions as Variable about this issue. There are others that we disagree on... the big one being that he doesn't believe the Prophet was a Prophet (duh, 'cause he's not Muslim ) and I do.


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Old 11-01-2007, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by Timbit View Post
Songbird: Yeah, I've read up on the subject, but honestly, these are all weak arguments. Okay, the Prophet never hit anybody... so then why is it allowed? The Sunnah doesn't override the Qur'an.
The Prophet avoided eating onion, but onion is not haraam. If it's allowed, it's allowed for a good reason, and that's what we as Muslims should believe in. Of course we need to educate ourselves and look for answers, but if you're looking for this valid reason on a forum with posters who are hardly knowledgeable scholars, I think you're looking in the wrong place. We can all strive to look for the answer, and ask those who know better and then maybe share the answer with everybody else.

It's nice to have a discussion about the subject, though.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
The Prophet avoided eating onion, but onion is not haraam.
Yeah, that's what I said. Just 'cause he didn't hit his wives doesn't mean it's not allowed anymore. And yet, that's what lots of people say... "Sure, it's allowed in the Qur'an, but look at the Sunnah."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
If it's allowed, it's allowed for a good reason, and that's what we as Muslims should believe in. Of course we need to educate ourselves and look for answers, but if you're looking for this valid reason on a forum with posters who are hardly knowledgeable scholars, I think you're looking in the wrong place. We can all strive to look for the answer, and ask those who know better and then maybe share the answer with everybody else.

It's nice to have a discussion about the subject, though.
Obviously nobody on Islamica's a scholar. We are discussing the issue though. Some of us know scholars or have access to them at least. So ask the knowledgeable people you know and share their answer.


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Old 11-01-2007, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

Assamu Alaikum,

Virables not a muslim o.O. ?

Alot of interesting things on this thread now, i thought after page 2-3 it was done., but good posts now, very informative
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

I just want to mention something, which I'm sure I mentioned before ... The verse clearly says, if one fears a wife's "nushooz". Nushooz means different things in different contexts. In that particular context, it does not mean disobedience. It means infidelity.

Anyway ... Check this out:

Bible, Numbers 5:11-31

"11Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.

16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.' "

Compare how the Qur'an and the Bible treat the same case of infidelity or suspected infidelity. The Bible wants the woman to go to a priest who will have her drink some magic potion, which supposedly can detect whether or not she was unfaithful to her husband (Mind you, only priests - and the thought of priests doesn't make me feel good these days, anyway - are in possession of this potion!!). But the husband is not to be blamed for his jealousy, even if the woman turns out to be innocent.

The Qur'an, on the other hand, instructs suspecting husbands who have no proof against their wives to take three measures. Beating being the last of all. The Qur'an did not say, "punish them, divorce them and send them back to their fathers."

In fact, I found amazing hadiths to support my argument (in Arabic). I'm going to look for the English version.


وعن سليمان بن عمرو بن الأحوص حدثني أبي أنه شهد حجة الوداع مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فحمد الله وأثنى عليه وذكر ووعظ ثم قال : استوصوا بالنساء خيرا فإنهن عندكم عوانٍ ليس تملكون منهن شيئا غير ذلك إلا أن يأتين بفاحشة مبينة فإن فعلن فاهجروهن في المضاجع واضربوهن ضربا غير مبرح فإن أطعنكم فلا تبغوا عليهن سبيلا إن لكم من نسائكم حقا ولنسائكم عليكم حقا فأما حقكم على نسائكم فلا يوطئن فرشكم من تكرهون ولا يأذن في بيوتكم لمن تكرهون ألا وحقهن عليكم أن تحسنوا إليهن في كسوتهن وطعامهن .

رواه الترمذي ( 1163 ) وقال : هذا حديث حسن صحيح ، وابن ماجه ( 1851 ) .



وعن جابر قال : قال صلى الله عليه وسلم : " فاتقوا الله في النساء فإنكم أخذتموهن بأمان الله واستحللتم فروجهن بكلمة الله ولكم عليهن أن لا يوطئن فرشكم أحدا تكرهونه فإن فعلن ذلك فاضربوهن ضربا غير مبرح ولهن عليكم رزقهن وكسوتهن بالمعروف " . رواه مسلم ( 1218 )
.

The above basically says (and I'm roughly translating this, so excuse my poor English ... also, this can be verified by any Arabic speaking person on here or elsewhere):

1. Be kind to women, for they are helpers, you have no right over them but that, unless they commit fa7ishah (basically fornication or adultery), and if they do then leave their beds (not send them to sleep on couches, yeah Variable?) and beat (or strike, whatever you want really) them lightly. If they obey you, then you shall not transgress. You have rights over them, and they have rights over you, and one of your rights over them is that they do not invite one to your beds that you do not like (haha, can it get any clearer than that!) and do not allow into your houses those whom you do not like, and their rights over you is that you feed them and clothe them. (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).

2. (This translation I took from a website): "Fear God concerning women! Verily you have taken them on the security of God, and intercourse with them has been made lawful unto you by words of God. You too have rights over them, and they should not allow anyone to sit on your bed whom you do not like. But if they do that, you can chastise them but not severely. Their rights upon you are that you should provide them with food and clothing in a fitting manner." (Arabic source says it was narrated by Muslim).
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