[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Variable

None of this makes me comfortable with the verse. So those scholars who know the Quran may not hit their wives (or they may for all I know). But what about Joe average who listens to those scholars saying it's okay? If they did, after they admonished her, sent her to sleep on the couch - they could hit her so long as she didn't get bruised? This doesn't sound any better to me. Again, me personally - thus my words on that above.

And then there's the idea that most people defend it, even though they don't do it, and I'm sure they wouldn't want it to happen to them. If this is the truth, either they're towing the party line, or relinquishing their own thought process to the control of others. This is the recipe for a weak society, not a strong one.

Personally, I'm not going to throw my whole lot in with one packaged set of ideas, outwardly accepting all of them, even though I disagree with some.

Uncle,

That's precisely why you have different tafseers, different madhabs, different muftis ... etc.

Some people will attempt to apologetically alter the meanings of clear verses to make them more appealing to Western ideals. I don't see the need. If the Qur'an has a clear verse like that, you either take it or leave it. I'm sure that the Qur'an and its followers (at least I hope the majority of them) aren't seeking Western approval. If the verse is there, there's a good reason why it is there. And if it says what we believe it says, then we also believe there's a valid reason and context for that verse.

Of course you are entitled to your opinions. I just have a little issue with what you said about the Prophet. I don't think he ever hurt his wives, at least not intentionally. He's not a hypocrite who strived to be the best in manners, preached something and then turned around and did the opposite.

What else would I read that as? It's in the Quran, I've heard youtube scholars describe it as this. I've read a hadith in which the Prophet actually hits his wife. So men are supposed to be good to their wives, because that's better - but given such and such a scenario... go ahead and hit them. And that scenario is pretty open.

You say - "It all comes down to how you want to understand and take in the meanings of the Qur'an" - this was my earlier point exactly. People can take the Quran, and interpret it almost any which way they want, and find scholars to back them up.

How do you expect Muslims from different racial and cultural backgrounds to believe in a set of uniform ideas? Islam is not a military institution, where everybody has to think and act the same way. There are certain cultural practices that people do not want to give up, and so they might pull out a verse or a hadith to justify their practices. If Islam is going to be a universal religion, then all cultures should be able to adapt Islam to their own local cultures.

If you're a man who believes in beating women, I don't think you'll need the Qur'an, or any holy book or scientific research to justify your actions. Just because there's a controversial verse, which you do not like, doesn't mean you can use it as a convenient hanger for excuses ... "I'm never going to be a Muslim because I hate that verse ..." No, you're not going to be a Muslim not because of that verse or any verse. It's just not for you. Would you revoke your citizenship if your country does something you don't necessarily agree with? I doubt you'd stop being Canadian for that. I doubt you'd stop being a male if all males were jerks, would you?

I'm not ... I dunno... dis-revering the Prophet. But the fact is, the nature of the Prophet's character has come across in many different ways, all from people who are learned in the subject. Some of those, I'd admire, in some instances, and in others, not so much.

We have to rely on others' works to understand about the Prophet's example and his message - we can't all be scholars or Islam would be an unfollowable religion on a mass scale. The problem is, whose opinions do we follow? People pick and choose.

Let me tell you how biographers write biographies ... they always interpret actions from their own point of view. A pacifist will interpret the Prophet's actions as a form of pacifism. Someone who is of a military mindset (hello uncle ) would look at the Prophet's actions through that lens. What a pacifist might refer to as "defensive wars" is going to be "conquests and strategic expansion" for a military person.

Another example: a non-combatant hiding with combatants in a citadel is a hostage crisis for one person; for another, it might as well be an enemy tactic to coerce the adversary to take different action. It's all about different viewpoints.

What we know of the Prophet (sAaw), we know from the Qur'an mostly. He was a man of excellent manners, which is perhaps why he was respected by his own followers and his enemies alike.

Because you "admired" some of the things you read about the Prophet, it just shows you liked what that particular author had interpreted to be the Prophet's character. Another author, or narrator, said something you didn't like. But to that narrator, and those of a similar mindset, it's totally cool. Bias is part of human nature. The most objective opinion is that of the Qur'an, which refers to the Prophet as one with excellent manners. So for me, and for many others I'm sure, that's open to interpretation as per our own biases. Excellent manners to me might slightly differ from excellent manners to you. Maybe you think excellent manners is taking a lady's hand as she descends from a bus, or a horse That would be horrible, indecent, perverted and shameless manners for others, you know?

[dezhen]

So saying as the server lost all of the previous posts, you are posting all this again after you got thoroughly trounced last time about how and when the term daraba can be used to mean "strike" or "leave" or "embark on a journey"...

It all depends on عن, or the use of another harf al-jarr such as إلى or على etc. which is not in the ayah you are discussing. This needs to be in place in order to change the meaning of daraba from its primary meaning of strike to a secondary meaning of leave or travel "leave from/to them, travel from/to them". Without this, it does not have this meaning and generally means strike. Hopefully people here can remember the thread and Azher will have it online again soon.

But this?



"bring forward to them.... etc. about the dissolution of marriage" - what is this? Are you now copying the Saudi's with the use of parenthesis? I thought the Qur'an was "clear" and "unadulterated"? So why do you need this many words to explain ضرب?

dawood

[rxrlm]

Yay.. dezhen's back!

Interesting posts Arabesque and Dezhen.

[dezhen]

Kind of back... in-between exams anyway.

dawood

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by dezhen

Kind of back... in-between exams anyway.

dawood

Hey welcome back Dezhen. Good to see you again. Good luck with your exams.

[Timbit]

Yeaaaaah.... I'm kind of inclined to agree with Variable on this one.
Why would Allah allow men to hit their wives?

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I love you, too, Skinwalker, but I think you missed my point.

What I meant to say is that men from Muslim countries don't necessarily dig up that verse to justify their violence in front of a judge. I doubt most men remember the existence of this verse. The verse most commonly used to promote patriarchy would be the one about qiwamma "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." [4:34], not the one about beating wives if one fears them to be disobedient. Plus, nushooz in this verse doesn't really mean "disobedience", but more like infidelity.

Similarly, a judge ruling in a case of domestic violence will not ask the man, "Do you think she was cheating on you? Maybe we can find a loophole here, you know." Domestic violence is a punishable act by Shariah. Men get fined, jailed and are made to sign papers stating that they will seek therapy and they will not again repeat their act. Of course, this only can happen if the incident is reported.

Because women rely more on their families and tribes, these cases are not usually reported, so they're dealt with privately. It's not because women are afraid to report cases of abuse. Family provides support most of the time, and there's no need to go to the police.

I'm sure there are women who do not involve their families or anybody, simply out of shame or the need to protect the husband somehow ... but that's rare, I'm sure. It probably happens more often in cases of non-arranged marriages, where the woman chooses the man, and maybe even forces her family to accept him ... if abuse happens, it becomes difficult to seek family support out of shame, I think.




I looked at the last one, because it's about the UAE. It says nothing about domestic violence. It's just a woman's association. That's not to claim there aren't any shelters here or stuff like that. In fact, we have a famous shelter for abused women called City of Hope, run by Sharla Musabih.

I'm glad these associations exist. But I don't think they are indicators of more violence in the societies in which they exist, because they are also widespread everywhere, both in Muslim and non-Muslim societies. So domestic violence and the abuse of women is a global phenomenon, and I don't think those who engage in it look through religious texts to justify their crimes.

What I'm trying to say is that, those who look through religious texts are the ones who do not practice such abominable acts.

Thanks for the love Arabesque. I think we are talking about the same thing here. Violence against women is a global problem and needs to be addressed now. We can all help by spreading the word and helping out in some way. The websites I referred to are ones that are trying to help women's position in some way. here is one from the UAE that offers help for domestic violence problems. I think they handle it in a different manner than we would expect, and are not so overt about it, but they still recognize it as a problem.

Here is another website and another but they are not translated into English. I got the references from a website dedicated to violence against women in the Middle East with many links to associations dealing with it in their various regions.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Of course you are entitled to your opinions. I just have a little issue with what you said about the Prophet. I don't think he ever hurt his wives, at least not intentionally. He's not a hypocrite who strived to be the best in manners, preached something and then turned around and did the opposite.

Correction:

He sallAllahu alaihi wasallam never hurt any of his wives [RAa] - perhaps on occasion through words to admonish them, but never physically. Fact.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yeaaaaah.... I'm kind of inclined to agree with Variable on this one.
Why would Allah allow men to hit their wives?

Hit?

How did you come to translate the Fushah word into hit sis?

There is a plethora of reading available on this ayat and I don't have time to go into it now. I have great notes on this from my class but I'm sure you can find some things online [though I'm personally averse to learning Islam on the Internet].

This may be helpful:


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

The verse you mention has been greatly misconceived by many people who focus merely on its surface meaning, taking it to allow wife beating. When the setting is not taken into account, it isolates the words in a way that distorts or falsifies the original meaning. Before dealing with the issue of wife-battering in the perspective of Islam, we should keep in mind that the original Arabic wording of the Qur'an is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.

Commenting on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

"According to the Qur'an the relationship between the husband and wife should be based on mutual love and kindness. Allah says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Ar-Rum: 21)

The Qur'an urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. [In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects]. Allah Almighty says: “Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (An-Nisa’: 19)

It is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband in the house. He is the head of the household, and she is supposed to listen to him. But the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute among them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to batch up the rift and solve the differences.

However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."

[Songbird]

Dr Jamal Badawi also covered this topic quite succinctly IMO - you can find some of his notes here:

Before I post it, I'm going to remind *you* Timbit that we have the Qur'an and the Sunnah to live our lives by. You seem to be fixated on the verse in the Qur'an without taking into consideration the way beloved Nabi sAw] whom we are *all* to emulate treated his wives [RAA]:



Wife beating?
By: Dr. Jamal Badawi

In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not overlook her POSITIVE ASPECTS (see Qur'an 4:19). If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, her husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem continues, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in deliberate mistreatment and expresses contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but NEVER ON THE FACE, making it more of a symbolic measure then a punitive one. Following is the related Qur'anic text:


Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) do not share their beds, (and last) beat (tap) them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (4:34)


Even here, that maximum measure is limited by the following:


a. It must be seen as A RARE EXCEPTION TO THE REPEATED EXHORTATION OF MUTUAL RESPECT, KINDNESS AND GOOD TREATMENT, discussed earlier. Based on the Qur'an and hadith this measure may be used in the cases of lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and rejection of the husband's reasonable requests on a consistent basis (nushuz). Even then, other measures, such as exhortation, should be tried first.


b. As defined by hadith, it is NOT PERMISSIBLE TO STRIKE ANYONE'S FACE, CAUSE ANY BODILY HARM OR EVEN BE HARSH. What the hadith qualified as dharban ghayra mubarrih, or light striking, was interpreted by early jurists as a (symbolic) use of miswak (a small natural toothbrush)! They further qualified permissible "striking" as that which leaves no mark on the body. It is interesting that this latter fourteen-centuries-old qualifier is the criterion used in contemporary American law to separate a light and harmless tap or strike from "abuse" in the legal sense. This makes it clear that even this extreme, last resort, and "lesser of the two evils" measure that may save a marriage does not meet the definitions of "physical abuse," "family violence, " or "wife battering" in the 20th century law in liberal democracies, where such extremes are so commonplace that they are seen as national concerns.


c. The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction DOES NOT IMPLY ITS DESIRABILITY. In several ahadith, Prophet Muhammad (P) discouraged this measure. Among his sayings are the following: "Do not beat the female servants of Allah;" "Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands (beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you;" and"[It is not a shame that] one of you beats his wife like [an unscrupulous person] beats a slave and maybe he sleeps with her at the end of the day." (See Riyadh Al-Saliheen, op.cit,p.p. 137-140). In another hadith the Prophet(P) said:


...How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?... (Sahih Al-Bukhari,op.cit., vol.8.hadith 68,pp.42-43).
d. True following of the sunnah is to follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (P), who NEVER RESORTED TO THAT MEASURE, regardless of the circumstances.


e. Islamic teachings are universal in nature. They respond to the needs and circumstances of diverse times, cultures and circumstances. Some measures may work in some cases and cultures or with certain persons but may not be effective in others. by definition, a "permissible" act is neither required, encouraged or forbidden. In fact it may be BETTER TO SPELL OUT THE EXTENT of permissibility, such as in the issue at hand, rather than leaving it unrestricted and unqualified, or ignoring it all together. In the absence of strict qualifiers, persons may interpret the matter in their own way, which can lead to excesses and real abuse.


f. Any excess, cruelty, family violence, or abuse committed by any "Muslim" can never be traced, honestly, to any revelatory text (Qur'an or hadith). Such EXCESSES AND VIOLATIONS ARE TO BE BLAMED ON THE PERSON(S) HIMSELF, as it shows that they are paying lip service to Islamic teachings and injunctions and failing to follow the true Sunnah of the Prophet (P).

[MossadConspiracy]

For everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yeaaaaah.... I'm kind of inclined to agree with Variable on this one.

And sis, before you start agreeing with Kaffirs and their 'Tafsir' of an Ayat on a discussion board full of laymen, let me remind you that Shaitaan whispers to us constantly.

I can already see him having a field day with you on this topic.

We have our A'alims [scholars] and we have them for a reason.

I'm not saying this to admonish you. You're still very young and very impressionable and I'm gathering [though I may be wrong] you are not in any study circle when it comes to the realm of Ilm [knowledge]?

You simply cannot learn about Islam via a discussion board on or the Internet sis.

So again, be wary of taking the opinion from a Kaffir/non-Muslim who does not revere Prophet Muhammed sAw.

As Muslims, we are exhorted to love our Nabi sAw MORE than our own parents and our own children. A non-Muslim will never understand this love, nor do I expect them to.

So, if you don't have that love for him sAw, I would recommend you start by reading the Seerah. I can recommend some if you're interested.