[Skinwalker]

If the Quran says not to beat women, then well and good. However, that doesn't change the fact that the way it is interpreted and practiced in many Middle East countries, shows that domestic violence is a real problem. 1 in 4 women in Syria are victims of domestic violence. How many then in other countries? Isn't it time for some sort of reform and a recognition that some customs just don't cut it any more? Many Christians will tell you that verses relating to the subjection of women were cultural practices that were the norm of their day and not to be enforced now. Shouldn't this be the view of Muslims too? All violence against women, in all of its manifestations is to be condemned. This idea that men have the right to treat their wives in this manner has no place in an equitable society.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Skinwalker

If the Quran says not to beat women, then well and good. However, that doesn't change the fact that the way it is interpreted and practiced in many Middle East countries, shows that domestic violence is a real problem. 1 in 4 women in Syria are victims of domestic violence. How many then in other countries? Isn't it time for some sort of reform and a recognition that some customs just don't cut it any more? Many Christians will tell you that verses relating to the subjection of women were cultural practices that were the norm of their day and not to be enforced now. Shouldn't this be the view of Muslims too? All violence against women, in all of its manifestations is to be condemned. This idea that men have the right to treat their wives in this manner has no place in an equitable society.

I don't think men who beat their wives go around looking for justifications in the Qur'an or hadith. They just do it. If they were mindful of Allah, and if they were following the Prophet's example, they wouldn't be beating their wives or losing their temper to that extent in the first place.

Domestic violence has nothing to do with Islam. I'm sure women get abused, but not in the way it happens in the West. It's extreme in the West. Women are beaten up blue and purple. It is considered culturally unmanly to beat a weaker person to that extent. Beating, in the cultural sense, means to cause pain. A ***** from a thorn can cause pain, just like a light beating can.

I've handled the case of a woman who beat her husband so bad, the guy was scared of reporting her. In fact, the only reason they were in court was because she she said he wasn't man enough for her. It wasn't the husband who brought the wife to court as I had first thought. But you see, there's this habit of victimising women. As if the way to empower women is by convincing them that they are being abused and denied any rights.

Maybe cases of physical abuse by men are more reported, but there are cases of physical and emotional abuse by women that are almost never reported or even addressed. I personally believe that emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse. With physical abuse, there's so much evidence available to indict the perpetrator. You can have a divorce and then move on (it can be tough, I'm sure), but emotional abuse stays for a very long time and can be very damaging, too.

This "disobedience" the verse is talking about probably has to do with emotional abuse on the part of the women. God knows best.

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I don't think men who beat their wives go around looking for justifications in the Qur'an or hadith. They just do it. If they were mindful of Allah, and if they were following the Prophet's example, they wouldn't be beating their wives or losing their temper to that extent in the first place.

Domestic violence has nothing to do with Islam. I'm sure women get abused, but not in the way it happens in the West. It's extreme in the West. Women are beaten up blue and purple. It is considered culturally unmanly to beat a weaker person to that extent. Beating, in the cultural sense, means to cause pain. A ***** from a thorn can cause pain, just like a light beating can.

I've handled the case of a woman who beat her husband so bad, the guy was scared of reporting her. In fact, the only reason they were in court was because she she said he wasn't man enough for her. It wasn't the husband who brought the wife to court as I had first thought. But you see, there's this habit of victimising women. As if the way to empower women is by convincing them that they are being abused and denied any rights.

Maybe cases of physical abuse by men are more reported, but there are cases of physical and emotional abuse by women that are almost never reported or even addressed. I personally believe that emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse. With physical abuse, there's so much evidence available to indict the perpetrator. You can have a divorce and then move on (it can be tough, I'm sure), but emotional abuse stays for a very long time and can be very damaging, too.

This "disobedience" the verse is talking about probably has to do with emotional abuse on the part of the women. God knows best.

I love you Arabesque but I think you are wrong about domestic violence in the Middle East and other Islamic countries. I'm not saying thast Domestic Violence is endorsed by Islam, but that the way Islam is interpreted by many men, they feel they have a licence to do it. Of course domestic violence happens in reverse, but in general women are the greater number of victims.

There are a number of organizations dedicated to aiding women who are victims of domestic violence throughout the Middle East.

Afghanistan - Humanitarian Association for Women and Children

Bahrain - Women and children's Welfare society

Iran - Institute for Womens Studies & Research

The Arab women's Court is active in Lebanon, Algeria, Egypt, Mauritania, Jordan, Morrocco, Syria, Iraq, Tunisia, Yemen and Palestine. (whew, think I got it all)

Jordan - Arab Youth Directory

Lebanon - The Lebanese Council to Resist violence against Women


Qatar - The Qatari Foundation for the Protection of Women and children

Syria - Syrian Women's League

UAE- General Women's League

You can find information at these sites regarding the problem of domestic violence in these areas and what is being done to combat it.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Skinwalker

I love you Arabesque but I think you are wrong about domestic violence in the Middle East and other Islamic countries. I'm not saying thast Domestic Violence is endorsed by Islam, but that the way Islam is interpreted by many men, they feel they have a licence to do it. Of course domestic violence happens in reverse, but in general women are the greater number of victims.

I love you, too, Skinwalker, but I think you missed my point.

What I meant to say is that men from Muslim countries don't necessarily dig up that verse to justify their violence in front of a judge. I doubt most men remember the existence of this verse. The verse most commonly used to promote patriarchy would be the one about qiwamma "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." [4:34], not the one about beating wives if one fears them to be disobedient. Plus, nushooz in this verse doesn't really mean "disobedience", but more like infidelity.

Similarly, a judge ruling in a case of domestic violence will not ask the man, "Do you think she was cheating on you? Maybe we can find a loophole here, you know." Domestic violence is a punishable act by Shariah. Men get fined, jailed and are made to sign papers stating that they will seek therapy and they will not again repeat their act. Of course, this only can happen if the incident is reported.

Because women rely more on their families and tribes, these cases are not usually reported, so they're dealt with privately. It's not because women are afraid to report cases of abuse. Family provides support most of the time, and there's no need to go to the police.

I'm sure there are women who do not involve their families or anybody, simply out of shame or the need to protect the husband somehow ... but that's rare, I'm sure. It probably happens more often in cases of non-arranged marriages, where the woman chooses the man, and maybe even forces her family to accept him ... if abuse happens, it becomes difficult to seek family support out of shame, I think.

There are a number of organizations dedicated to aiding women who are victims of domestic violence throughout the Middle East.

UAE- General Women's League

You can find information at these sites regarding the problem of domestic violence in these areas and what is being done to combat it.

I looked at the last one, because it's about the UAE. It says nothing about domestic violence. It's just a woman's association. That's not to claim there aren't any shelters here or stuff like that. In fact, we have a famous shelter for abused women called City of Hope, run by Sharla Musabih.

I'm glad these associations exist. But I don't think they are indicators of more violence in the societies in which they exist, because they are also widespread everywhere, both in Muslim and non-Muslim societies. So domestic violence and the abuse of women is a global phenomenon, and I don't think those who engage in it look through religious texts to justify their crimes.

What I'm trying to say is that, those who look through religious texts are the ones who do not practice such abominable acts.

[MuslimahDaTurkish]

i advise wives to beat their husbands up

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by MuslimahDaTurkish

i advise wives to beat their husbands up

Won't work donchaknow

[IbnMardhiyah]

As Arabesque said, domestic violence against women in Muslim countries has nothing to do with Islam or with what the Qur'an says or doesn't say.

Just like domestic violence in non-Muslim countries has nothing to do with the Bible or other religious texts.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Domestic violence has nothing to do with Islam. I'm sure women get abused, but not in the way it happens in the West. It's extreme in the West.

I'm sure there are extreme examples of spousal abuse in the West, and extreme examples in the Muslim world.

A ***** from a thorn can cause pain, just like a light beating can.

Such foul language, may your future husband deal with you swiftly. Anyway you know, I don't really know how many men actually use this to justify beating their wives. What makes me uncomfortable is the fact that it's there at all. Even moreso, how many guys defend it as their right with such gusto.

It's more of a personal matter for me, one that would probably prevent me from accepting Islam as my own belief if I was ever inclined to do so. People have asked me "how could such a small, insignificant point stop you from accepting Islam?" - I don't think permission to hit my wife is a small matter, and I don't think it's something God would say to me through a guy who lived in Arabia 1400 years ago.

I also don't think that most practicing Muslim men would do this to their wives, nor do I think they're silly for following a religion that I personally don't believe in. But I hear people say things like 'the Prophet never struck his wife', or 'the problem is savage Westerners' - and I feel like I should say something.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

If Ibn Mas'oud said something and it was written down / transmitted through a verified chain of transmission, then yes. The integrity of his character was widely known, so it is not possible for a handful of people to conspire and manufacture up reports on his integrity and character. We know he was an authoritative source on the exegesis of the Qur'an, so that's why his word is top-ranked. That was his specialty. Other Companions had other areas of specialization.

I'm still not sure how one would know if what he says is right. What evidence backs him up? I'm not certain how peer review works regarding Islamic sources. I don't think reputation is really a base for that.

I don't know what their specific statements are on that ayah.

If we knew who they were and what they said about it, we could sort this all out right now.

[vegetables]

salam,

I do agree agree that there is absolutely no justification for abuse that can be found in Islam. However people do ATTEMPT to use Islam as an excuse to do it and even condone it. I'm talking from experience of one major Islamic organization in America who has deep cultural roots tied in with their Islam. When they knew of a case of severe abuse going on, even criminal activity they don't go near it, in fact they go out of their way to tell others to leave it be. They excuse it because, to paraphrase "thats how its done in Pakistan" and divorce is never an option. It just reminds me of how Catholics view divorce as forbidden so they just go out cheat on their wives etc and it causes even more problems.

This is one thing which GREATLY disturbed me how they can so easily have their cultural garbage override something so blatantly unislamic while they say enjoin good and forbid evil. I will add that this organization was not approached for help, rather they approached the respective parties and insisted to keep it quiet and don't involve the police, doctors etc.
However not everyone reacted like this organization. The people not familiar or exposed to Desi culture were very understanding and helpful and acknowledged that this was intolerable unislamic behavior.

sooo in conclusion, domestic violence occurs when cultural garbage is superimposed over Islam.

[vegetables]

oops double post :/

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Variable

Such foul language, may your future husband deal with you swiftly.

Woot? I said p.r.i.c.k! Is that a bad word? Excuse me, I am unaware of any indecent meanings ascribed to the word Blame it on my English.

Anyway you know, I don't really know how many men actually use this to justify beating their wives. What makes me uncomfortable is the fact that it's there at all. Even moreso, how many guys defend it as their right with such gusto.

Like I said, people (both men and women) will defend many things they don't necessarily want to practice, such as polygyny. Most men would not want to have more than one wife (Aryan may be an exception, I guess ) and most women would not want to share their husbands. Yet most of them will defend the verse and will also tell you of the "wisdom" behind it. It may be controversial, but if Allah (swt) stresses in various chapter the need to obey Him and to obey His prophet (sAaw) and to follow the example of the latter, then I don't see how anyone could confuse that, or even use the word of Allah to justify illicit practices.

And I will say this again. Those who contemplate the meaning of the Qur'an aren't the same ones who abuse their spouses.

It's more of a personal matter for me, one that would probably prevent me from accepting Islam as my own belief if I was ever inclined to do so. People have asked me "how could such a small, insignificant point stop you from accepting Islam?" - I don't think permission to hit my wife is a small matter, and I don't think it's something God would say to me through a guy who lived in Arabia 1400 years ago.

Dude, Islam is obviously not for everyone. Islam is for those whose hearts were opened to it. If you don't feel yours is, or ever would, then you're more than welcome It all comes down to how you want to understand and take in the meanings of the Qur'an. If you read it as a "permission" to hit your wife, then I wouldn't be surprised if some Muslims took it the same way, too.

I also don't think that most practicing Muslim men would do this to their wives, nor do I think they're silly for following a religion that I personally don't believe in. But I hear people say things like 'the Prophet never struck his wife', or 'the problem is savage Westerners' - and I feel like I should say something.

By all means .. you're free to say what you want, and I'm sure that as long as you don't use offensive language, I'm sure nobody's going to object to what you say. And I must say, you've always been respectful.

But then again, I must stress the need to speak with knowledge. I don't expect you to revere the Prophet the same way we do, but in order to understand why we do hold him in high esteem, you'll need to learn more about him ... within the historical context of his time, not our time. It's just like reading about David, Solomon or Moses ... read, within the historical context to appreciate. Otherwise their stories would be meaningless.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

I'm still not sure how one would know if what he says is right. What evidence backs him up? I'm not certain how peer review works regarding Islamic sources. I don't think reputation is really a base for that.

I'm really not sure why you're still carrying on about this.

Just like a doctor or a lawyer any professional is trusted if its known that he / she has learned the profession from an authorized and accredited source, and has the requisite credentials to boot, in the same way some of the Sahabaa's opinions are known to be authoritative based on what is known for certain about how and where they learned what they did.

Aishah [RA] for example, is a known authority regarding the Prophet himself, his household manners, his habits, etc - and thus what an ideal Muslim household should be like - because she was his wife.

So Ibn Mas'oud is a known authority on the Qur'an because everyone knew he had spent the most time around the Prophet, and had learned directly from him.

I mean, if I had spent 20 years learning how to do business from Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, or even Alan Greenspan, or if I had worked for 15 years at Goldman Sachs or Bear Stearns, then yes I would be an authoritative figure on business and finance. People would know where I had cut my teeth on and they wouldn't be questioning my opinions.