[MossadConspiracy]

This is as my Master told it to me and now I tell it thee.

There are a billion names of damnation! A billion kinds of things that slither and slime and defile the land and sea and wind. Each thing is a kind of sin spawned by man's evil. And that man is very sinful there are many of these damned things and their power is great.

As the purpose of all things in nature is to increase so it is with the damned. They would we joined them and so they seek to overcome us. In alien forms they assault us. In sleep they come to spread doubt and fear among us. They would corrupt our hearts and see us damned too. Trust them not nor suffer them to live.

For each alien destroyed is a soul freed from eternal bondage. Each mortal alien life extinguished is a human soul raised to glory. Thus our eternal destiny is written in the blood of the alien.

With sword and spear destroy the alien. With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars. With tooth and fist and hammer blows, with axe and shell and poison-bombs, with virus-charge and thermal mines!
Kill them! Kill them! Kill them all!

As my Master told it me I now tell it thee that thou shalt tell others in thy turn.

from an al-qaeda manual

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

No need to make another thread... it's enough to point out that from the early Islamic conquests to the Ottomans, there was military Islamic expansion. By misguided people? It was by the first Caliphs. Do you think Spain was brought under control by a misguided people? This is pretty basic history.

And who are you to decide what reasons are shallow or not for people? These are important parts of people's cultures - I didn't expect to hear this from you. You're not even hearing what I'm saying - if I heard a clear message from God, that rang true with me, giving up dancing wouldn't be such a problem.

Imagine yourself having never heard of the Church of Latter Day Saints, and one day a Mormon comes to you - telling you that parts of the culture you grew up in were sinful, telling you that your hijab and how you dress was amoral, that Eid and Ramadan were blasphemous, and that you're going to burn in everlasting hell fire if you didn't believe solely in their view.

What would you think? Knowing them, they'd phrase it in a somewhat more slick way (probably better than most dawah I've recieved), but that's essentially the message.

So I wouldn't expect you to just assume they were correct based on what Joseph Smith said one hundred and some years ago.

This is exactly what I was presented with. And when people come to me, to tell me that my culture - how we live, how we dress, what we eat, and what we believe, is amoral and even disgusting - I'm not going to, by default, accept what they're saying as truth. And I didn't, I had a look, a long hard look - and to this day I have yet to hear a convincing argument on why Islam is a clear message from God, or why it's way is the best one to the exclusions of all others.

That's why I don't believe, not because it forbids me to dance.

I'm not going to score any points saying this here... heck I'm on a forum full of Muslims, many many of whom have been conditioned since birth to believe exactly what I described above. There's no arguing with that. But it's not going to stop me from explaining why my points of view. And if that's hard to understand, or offends people - maybe it'd help to remember that can be just as offensive on the other side.

1. I said to make another thread 'cause I didn't wanna derail this one any further. If you don't mind though, then okay. Let's just talk in here. Islam was not spread by force and definitely not by the first Caliphs, who we consider to be Rightly Guided.

2. You said you don't believe in Islam because it prohibits certain things that you hold dear: music, dancing, going out with girls. I didn't say that. You did.

All I said is those are kind of superficial things and not things I would think anybody "holds dear." Something you'd hold dear would be your family, or a value or a political ideal. Not the ability to go out with girls. And I dunno why you wouldn't expect that from me. I'm not deciding they're shallow reasons, but they sure do seem shallow to me.

Everybody gives up something to come to Islam, even if you're born into it. You think my culture is an Islamic culture? No, there's no such thing. It's a Muslim culture. You think the Arabs that Islam was revealed to wanted to give up fornicating and drinking (or female infanticide or wife-beating or slavery)? Of course not. But we do believe that we've heard a clear message from God, so that's why we don't feel that bad about not getting to drink wine or eat prosciutto. It's not like how you're putting it: you don't believe in Islam 'cause it's questionable whether or not music is allowed.

And I hate Mormons trying to get me to convert.
At least Muslims don't bug people at bus stops. Maybe our arguments for converting aren't that slick, but honestly, we're not sugercoating anything... Allah guides whom He wills, Truth stands out clear from error, and there's no compulsion in religion.

I spent all night dancing at an all-girls' party tonight, btw, and it was super-fun.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MuslimZ

Not digging the analogy. The army (particularly in the US) systematically breaks down all free thought, will, and dissonance. This is, of course, necessary in ensuring soldiers do as they are told and it's what keeps the army unified. However, Islam is not meant to be a monolith of conformity. I think this is one of the greatest threats facing modern Muslims; more and more people see their religion like the Army; decrying any and all dissidence and alternative thinking; breaking the individual spirit in favor of one black-and-white ideology. The beauty of Islam is its inherent embracing of pluralism and its underlying urge to live and let live. This is fast becoming a forgotten concept. And this is why you see people able to rape the meaning of verses like the "wife-beating" one with such ease. If anyone even questions the interpretation of such verses and hadiths, they are ruled a heretic and Islam-hater. There's no beauty in such contempt.

And I quote something I had said earlier (page 5):

Originally Posted by Arabesque

How do you expect Muslims from different racial and cultural backgrounds to believe in a set of uniform ideas? Islam is not a military institution, where everybody has to think and act the same way. There are certain cultural practices that people do not want to give up, and so they might pull out a verse or a hadith to justify their practices. If Islam is going to be a universal religion, then all cultures should be able to adapt Islam to their own local cultures.

There's a good reason I used the army as an analogy, but I don't want to explain. Let's leave it at that.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

2. You said you don't believe in Islam because it prohibits certain things that you hold dear: music, dancing, going out with girls. I didn't say that. You did.

No, I said nothing like that. You may have breezed over what I wrote and thought I said that, but I didn't. I'll post this explanation again, drawing your attention to the bolded text:


"...when people come to me, to tell me that my culture - how we live, how we dress, what we eat, and what we believe, is amoral and even disgusting - I'm not going to, by default, accept what they're saying as truth. And I didn't, I had a look, a long hard look - and to this day I have yet to hear a convincing argument on why Islam is a clear message from God, or why it's way is the best one to the exclusion of all others.

That's why I don't believe, not because it forbids me to dance. "

I was illustrating the fact that Musims and Islam iself have made judgments - sometimes innately, other times overtly, on me, my family, my culture. Something that all Abrahamic and exclusive religions do. In turn, they aren't immune to judgements made on them... I wasn't explaining definitively why I'm not a Muslim.

All I said is those are kind of superficial things and not things I would think anybody "holds dear."

Then you'd be wrong. Very very wrong. People hold their cultures, and what goes into those cultures, close to their hearts.

Something you'd hold dear would be your family, or a value or a political ideal. Not the ability to go out with girls.

Then you're getting the point, and missing it at the same time.

And I dunno why you wouldn't expect that from me. I'm not deciding they're shallow reasons, but they sure do seem shallow to me.

Because I thought you were uncommonly capable of seeing different points of view.

And I hate Mormons trying to get me to convert.
At least Muslims don't bug people at bus stops. Maybe our arguments for converting aren't that slick, but honestly, we're not sugercoating anything... Allah guides whom He wills, Truth stands out clear from error, and there's no compulsion in religion.

Muslims may not have the same aggressive evangelical style of members of the LDS - but by virtue of the fact there are mixing populations of Muslims and non-Muslims, it's only going to be so long before these values collide and judegments are made.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

No, I said nothing like that. You may have breezed over what I wrote and thought I said that, but I didn't. I'll post this explanation again, drawing your attention to the bolded text:

"...when people come to me, to tell me that my culture - how we live, how we dress, what we eat, and what we believe, is amoral and even disgusting - I'm not going to, by default, accept what they're saying as truth. And I didn't, I had a look, a long hard look - and to this day I have yet to hear a convincing argument on why Islam is a clear message from God, or why it's way is the best one to the exclusion of all others.

That's why I don't believe, not because it forbids me to dance. "

I was illustrating the fact that Musims and Islam iself have made judgments - sometimes innately, other times overtly, on me, my family, my culture. Something that all Abrahamic and exclusive religions do. In turn, they aren't immune to judgements made on them... I wasn't explaining definitively why I'm not a Muslim.

Then you'd be wrong. Very very wrong. People hold their cultures, and what goes into those cultures, close to their hearts.

Then you're getting the point, and missing it at the same time.

Because I thought you were uncommonly capable of seeing different points of view.


Muslims may not have the same aggressive evangelical style of members of the LDS - but by virtue of the fact there are mixing populations of Muslims and non-Muslims, it's only going to be so long before these values collide and judegments are made.

Right, so?
Everybody makes judgements. I think drinking is disgusting. A Mormon obviously thinks my belief in Islam is wong. It doesn't bug me that they think that; it bugs me that they try to proselytize to me when all I'm doing is minding my own business. Am I going around attempting to convert people? No, I'm not.

You say you haven't found a convincing reason to convert. Okay, that's great. So don't convert. I just don't see why it is that you're trying to explain to us why you're not Muslim.
Maybe if you said "I can't believe in a religion that condones wife-beating" or some such, then that would actually make sense, on an intellectual level. But you're saying you don't believe in Islam 'cause it makes judgements on your culture of dancing and going out with girls.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Right, so?
Everybody makes judgements. I think drinking is disgusting. A Mormon obviously thinks my belief in Islam is wong. It doesn't bug me that they think that; it bugs me that they try to proselytize to me when all I'm doing is minding my own business. Am I going around attempting to convert people? No, I'm not.

You aren't...

You say you haven't found a convincing reason to convert. Okay, that's great. So don't convert. I just don't see why it is that you're trying to explain to us why you're not Muslim.

Because that's what this converstion evolved into... beginning with me disagreeing with the verse on beating of wives, and people's selective reading. And then taking flak for actually having an opinion on the matter.

Maybe if you said "I can't believe in a religion that condones wife-beating" or some such, then that would actually make sense, on an intellectual level. But you're saying you don't believe in Islam 'cause it makes judgements on your culture of dancing and going out with girls.

No, I'm not. I never said anything like that. I've explained it twice... you're reading what you want to read, not what I'm saying.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

No, I'm not. I never said anything like that. I've explained it twice... you're reading what you want to read, not what I'm saying.

I still don't get it, sorry.

If you believed in Islam, then you'd have no problem giving up dancing, right?
But you don't believe in Islam because you haven't had anybody convince you to yet?

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

I still don't get it, sorry.

If you believed in Islam, then you'd have no problem giving up dancing, right?
But you don't believe in Islam because you haven't had anybody convince you to yet?

Yeh. I don't believe in it because I haven't seen anything that convinces me that it's the best way, or a message from God. There are elements in it that in fact convince me of quite the opposite.

To me and most non-Musims it takes its place as one of many religions that claim themselves to hold a monopoly on the truth about this world and the hereafter.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh. I don't believe in it because I haven't seen anything that convinces me that it's the best way, or a message from God. There are elements in it that in fact convince me of quite the opposite.

To me and most non-Musims it takes its place as one of many religions that claim themselves to hold a monopoly on the truth about this world and the hereafter.

So basically what you're saying is:

I'm prepared to lose out big time on Judgment Day because I didn't accept Islam. That price is worth it for the few fleeting moments of enjoyment that I insist on getting in this world.

That's one hell of a huge gamble.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh. I don't believe in it because I haven't seen anything that convinces me that it's the best way, or a message from God. There are elements in it that in fact convince me of quite the opposite.

To me and most non-Musims it takes its place as one of many religions that claim themselves to hold a monopoly on the truth about this world and the hereafter.

Okay, so then what's your point about dancing again?

[Arabesque]

This is turning into a personal, ego-feeding thread about why Variable uncle won't convert to Islam.

Maybe we should get back to the wife-beating issue.

[MossadConspiracy]

Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. Beat your wife.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Okay, so then what's your point about dancing again?

That I'm perfectly justified in making judgments on a movement that judges me.