[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yes, well... there are misguided people. But in general, Islam wasn't spread by force. You guys can make a different thread about it though if you want.

No need to make another thread... it's enough to point out that from the early Islamic conquests to the Ottomans, there was military Islamic expansion. By misguided people? It was by the first Caliphs. Do you think Spain was brought under control by a misguided people? This is pretty basic history.

Yeah, that does sound strange to me, actually.
There's an element of dance in Muslim cultures too. It's not like we're devoid of any culture whatsoever. And we have good food too.

All you seem to be saying is that Islam has lots of restrictions on things and it's not a very "fun" religion... you can't have a girlfriend or drink or party or dance. Big deal. You think the Arabs of the Prophet's time liked these restrictions?

Those are kind of shallow reasons to not believe.

And who are you to decide what reasons are shallow or not for people? These are important parts of people's cultures - I didn't expect to hear this from you. You're not even hearing what I'm saying - if I heard a clear message from God, that rang true with me, giving up dancing wouldn't be such a problem.

Imagine yourself having never heard of the Church of Latter Day Saints, and one day a Mormon comes to you - telling you that parts of the culture you grew up in were sinful, telling you that your hijab and how you dress was amoral, that Eid and Ramadan were blasphemous, and that you're going to burn in everlasting hell fire if you didn't believe solely in their view.

What would you think? Knowing them, they'd phrase it in a somewhat more slick way (probably better than most dawah I've recieved), but that's essentially the message.

So I wouldn't expect you to just assume they were correct based on what Joseph Smith said one hundred and some years ago.

This is exactly what I was presented with. And when people come to me, to tell me that my culture - how we live, how we dress, what we eat, and what we believe, is amoral and even disgusting - I'm not going to, by default, accept what they're saying as truth. And I didn't, I had a look, a long hard look - and to this day I have yet to hear a convincing argument on why Islam is a clear message from God, or why it's way is the best one to the exclusions of all others.

That's why I don't believe, not because it forbids me to dance.

I'm not going to score any points saying this here... heck I'm on a forum full of Muslims, many many of whom have been conditioned since birth to believe exactly what I described above. There's no arguing with that. But it's not going to stop me from explaining why my points of view. And if that's hard to understand, or offends people - maybe it'd help to remember that can be just as offensive on the other side.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yes, well... there are misguided people. But in general, Islam wasn't spread by force. You guys can make a different thread about it though if you want.

And obviously garlic and onions aren't haraam.

Actually generally speaking Islam WAS spread by force, the Ottoman empire was a vast chunk of Islamic history, its misguided to pass it off as if it was nothing.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Variable

I'm not going to score any points saying this here... heck I'm on a forum full of Muslims, many many of whom have been conditioned since birth to believe exactly what I described above. There's no arguing with that. But it's not going to stop me from explaining why my points of view. And if that's hard to understand, or offends people - maybe it'd help to remember that can be just as offensive on the other side.

Excuse me? Conditioned since birth?

Like we're one big homogenous bunch of robots who are incapable of any kind of independant thinking?

Charming.

And you talk about offensiveness.

And yeah, thanks for the collective insult to our parents and how we were raised. You should pray you had a mother like mine.

[dezhen]

Wow, I think everyone in this thread needs to switch to some decaf and take a deep breath. Differences (even major ones) can be discussed without getting personal and rude...

dawood

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Revert

Actually generally speaking Islam WAS spread by force, the Ottoman empire was a vast chunk of Islamic history, its misguided to pass it off as if it was nothing.

Excuse me?

Good God, are you actually being serious?

I'm not even going to waste my time with you on this.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by dezhen

Wow, I think everyone in this thread needs to switch to some decaf and take a deep breath. Differences (even major ones) can be discussed without getting personal and rude...

dawood

Yea but that would'nt be in the spirit of Islamica donchaknow

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by dezhen

Wow, I think everyone in this thread needs to switch to some decaf and take a deep breath. Differences (even major ones) can be discussed without getting personal and rude...

dawood

Personal and rude?

He -- albeit cleverly -- insults our Nabi sAw and only now you decide to come out of hibernation with your little stick?

Don't insult me.

I'm still amazed -- though not all that surprised -- that some of you act like mice on this board. Instead of vigorously defending our Nabi sAw, some of you are probably too busy scratching yourselves whilst collectively wondering who's on at MSN. Where are the Zinadines of this world eh?

Variable said that *Islam* caused suffering. How did Islam cause suffering? Islam is a peaceful faith that promotes goodness to mankind and society. Heck it even extends this harmony towards even all fauna and flora. It's not a faith that causes suffering, it's the followers who at times, can misuse its teachings to achieve their own political or personal ends.

Islam does not cause suffering. It *does* mete out punishment however [and rightly so] for its followers who transgress its laws.

But getting back to Variable's ludicrous assertions that it's Islam's fault: learn the difference between Islam and Muslims, Variable. You're intelligent enough to do so. It's not Catholicism that sodomises little boys. It's some Catholic priests. Get it?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Excuse me?

Good God, are you actually being serious?

I'm not even going to waste my time with you on this.

Why won't you waste your time with a great chunk of our history? I'm not being offensive to anyone nor am insulting one individual. I happen to be of the group of Muslims that doesn't deny certain parts of our history just because it doesn't fit in with thier personal convictions.

Many Muslim empires did forcibly convert many groups to Islam, however that doesn't automatically negate the good that other Muslim groups did before and after.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Personal and rude?

He -- albeit cleverly -- insults our Nabi sAw and only now you decide to come out of hibernation with your little stick?

Don't insult me.

I'm still amazed -- though not all that surprised -- that some of you act like mice on this board. Instead of vigorously defending our Nabi sAw, some of you are probably too busy scratching yourselves whilst collectively wondering who's on at MSN. Where are the Zinadines of this world eh?

Variable said that *Islam* caused suffering. How did Islam cause suffering? Islam is a peaceful faith that promotes goodness to mankind and society. Heck it even extends this harmony towards even all fauna and flora. It's not a faith that causes suffering, it's the followers who at times, can misuse its teachings to achieve their own political or personal ends.

Islam does not cause suffering. It *does* mete out punishment however [and rightly so] for its followers who transgress its laws.

But getting back to Variable's ludicrous assertions that it's Islam's fault: learn the difference between Islam and Muslims, Variable. You're intelligent enough to do so. It's not Catholicism that sodomises little boys. It's some Catholic priests. Get it?

If you had read any of V posts you would see that he doesn't differentiate between Islam and its followers, he doesn't see them as mutually exclusive in this instance.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Revert

Why won't you waste your time with a great chunk of our history? I'm not being offensive to anyone nor am insulting one individual. I happen to be of the group of Muslims that doesn't deny certain parts of our history just because it doesn't fit in with thier personal convictions.

Many Muslim empires did forcibly convert many groups to Islam, however that doesn't automatically negate the good that other Muslim groups did before and after.

I don't waste my time period.

And I have guests coming over shortly.

So you tell me about Islamic expansion. I'd like to know for example, how Islam was spread in China, who spread it and so forth? Was it done forcefully?

Considering there are approximately around 30 to 50 million Muslims in China today, please educate us on how they came to embrace Islam.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Revert

If you had read any of V posts you would see that he doesn't differentiate between Islam and its followers, he doesn't see them as mutually exclusive in this instance.

No kidding?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Songbird

I don't waste my time period.

And I have guests coming over shortly.

So you tell me about Islamic expansion. I'd like to know for example, how Islam was spread in China, who spread it and so forth? Was it done forcefully?

Considering there are approximately around 30 to 50 million Muslims in China today, please educate us on how they came to embrace Islam.

As far as I am aware it was brought over during the reign of the 3rd Caliph, and was spread by peaceful means. However that doesn't negate the fact that during history certain groups have tried to spread Islam by force.

[MossadConspiracy]

In the case of Nurgle, it is both the followers and the deity that do bad things, as can be seen in this illustration:

[dezhen]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Personal and rude?

He -- albeit cleverly -- insults our Nabi sAw and only now you decide to come out of hibernation with your little stick?

Don't insult me.

How did I insult you? I mentioned my opinion which was across the board on all possible "sides" of this debate as a reminder to everyone that we can disagree whilst still being civil.

Instead of vigorously defending our Nabi sAw, some of you are probably too busy scratching yourselves whilst collectively wondering who's on at MSN.

"vigorously defending our Nabi sAw" is meant to be done with impeccable manners and through debating in good character - as he always did. Not through ad-hominems and personal attacks - even if that is what is done in return.

dawood