Christians and Jews are not kafir

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Variable

Doesn't it mean to 'cover up' something kind of?

Yeah, it literally means someone who "covers up the truth." It's colloquially taken to mean "unbeliever," but that's not literally true. It means more specifically a person who is deliberate in his unbelief after knowing what the truth is. So, for example, one might note how the merchant kings of Mecca rejected the Prophet not because they thought he was lying (he was known to be a man of honest character) but because they feared his preachings would reduce the revenues they received from all of the various polytheists who came to worship their gods at the Kaaba. They even at one point offered to "embrace Islam" so long as he was willing to incorporate pagan gods into the religion so that they wouldn't lose their source of income. One would consider them *kaafirs.*

There have been many Islamic scholars who maintain that people are only responsible for their unbelief once they have understood Islam and THEN rejected it. The extreme end of this spectrum is that nobody truly understood Islam except for the Prophet, and so the only people who truly rejected the religion of Islam were his contemporaries. In all other generations, people who do not accept Islam do so because muslims are not delivering its message properly.

I think that goes a bit too far, but I'm just putting it out there to give you a sense of the range of ideas here involving what the nature of "disbelief" is. I will argue that it is unequivocally WRONG, no matter how one looks at it, to equate "kaafir" *merely* with someone who is not Muslim -- there is far more to the picture.

[albano]

For the opener of this thread
You should read about nasih-mansuh ayets.

[AbuAlAbbas]

Originally Posted by Khairan

Yeah, that's not a very compelling argument. "If you don't believe that we're the chosen people and that everyone else is going to hell, then YOU'RE going to hell too! LIVE IN FEAR!!!"


I think I'm content leaving the final decisions up to God and recognizing that I don't really have any idea who He will choose to grant Paradise.

Your a Rafhidi, who makes sajda to other than Allah SWT, so it doesnt really matter what you say....This is the opinion of the scholars, the scholars of Ahl-Sunnah wal jammah. Not a rafhidi priest, whos words have no basis on the kitab or sunnah.

Anyways, its funny how you see all these ignorant people posting their own opinions on these issues on this website. There is only a few people on this website who actually dont give out fatwas and make up their own rulings on issues. For those people who do, dont speak on behalf of Allah SWT on things you do not know of.

It is the scholars who have said that those who dont believe that christians and jews are non-believers, that they themselves are non-believers. Now for the christians and jews who never hear about the message of Islam, they are considered as non-believers here on earth but on the day of judgement their fate is up to Allah SWT. But for those who heard the message of Muhammad SAW and rejected, they are non-believers on earth and on the day of judgement. And that is the opinion of the scholars.

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Your a Rafhidi, who makes sajda to other than Allah SWT, so it doesnt really matter what you say....This is the opinion of the scholars, the scholars of Ahl-Sunnah wal jammah. Not a rafhidi priest, whos words have no basis on the kitab or sunnah.

Oh my, what a sophisticated, compelling argument!

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

It is the scholars who have said that those who dont believe that christians and jews are non-believers, that they themselves are non-believers. Now for the christians and jews who never hear about the message of Islam, they are considered as non-believers here on earth but on the day of judgement their fate is up to Allah SWT. But for those who heard the message of Muhammad SAW and rejected, they are non-believers on earth and on the day of judgement. And that is the opinion of the scholars.

I know it's convenient for you to think that Islamic scholarship is uniform on this issue, but it's not. There is and has been long-standing disagreement on the nature of unbelief and what defines someone as being a "rejector," your protestations and oversimplifications notwithstanding.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by AbuAlAbbas

Anyways, its funny how you see all these ignorant people posting their own opinions on these issues on this website.

Isn't it though

[Khairan]

Variable, for another look at your question regarding "kufr," al-Ghazali took a different approach then the one I describe above. He literally defined "kaafir" as one who does not believe in the message of the Prophet, but he went on to insist that the term in itself could have no moral connotations and in fact was neutral and merely descriptive. Whereas I'm more in line with people who give "kaafir" a very specific meaning, I think in the end a rose by any other name is still a rose and although his chosen lexicon was different al-Ghazali was essentially making the same argument I'm presenting above, namely that "disbelief" in itself must be qualified because those who disbelieve are not all of one character or disposition and do not among themselves have precisely the same access to Islam. Indeed, these cautions must apply to muslims as well, who themselves are not homogeneous in their characters, beliefs, or knowledge either.


Hope that helps some bro.

[the_only_one]

chilling topic...i was reading a book on this topic n didn't get to finish it.. however, the writer gave proof of both opinions(how some scholars say, J &C are mushriks and while others say otherwise*..).sometimes, leaving grey areas undiscussed is better off than saying something whacky..Allahu Alim

*Ive heard/read both opinions neither argument convinces me fully...so i leave it up to Almighty for He is the judge!

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Khairan

Yeah, it literally means someone who "covers up the truth." It's colloquially taken to mean "unbeliever," but that's not literally true.

Not to disagree, but kaafir (root word kafar) literally means one who rejects "something". This something could be either truth or falsehood; it doesn't matter. If, and when you add the preposition, 3ala (on) to the word kufr, the term changes to mean "covering up something".

Like saying, "something" 3alayhi kafr (not kufr, but kaaf with a fat7ah) means "something" is covered up.

(If I don't make sense, please let me know. I'm teaching Arabic to young learners starting tomorrow! Lol feedback will be appreciated.)

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Not to disagree, but kaafir (root word kafar) literally means one who rejects "something". This something could be either truth or falsehood; it doesn't matter. If, and when you add the preposition, 3ala (on) to the word kufr, the term changes to mean "covering up something".

Like saying, "something" 3alayhi kafr (not kufr, but kaaf with a fat7ah) means "something" is covered up.

(If I don't make sense, please let me know. I'm teaching Arabic to young learners starting tomorrow! Lol feedback will be appreciated.)

I understand what you mean -- I've always taken the term to read literally as: one who covers up [the truth] -- i.e., in a theological sense it always means to cover up the truth because Islamically speaking we would never use "kufr" to refer to an act which covers falsehood. Would you agree with that?

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Khairan

I understand what you mean -- I've always taken the term to read literally as: one who covers up [the truth] -- i.e., in a theological sense it always means to cover up the truth because Islamically speaking we would never use "kufr" to refer to an act which covers falsehood. Would you agree with that?

Yes, it doesn't make sense to say "you're covering up falsehood". But that's not what I meant.

"Kufr" is to reject, and it could refer to rejecting truth and falsehood.

Kafar 3ala (3ala being the preposition meaning on) means to cover up. Kufr means to reject. That's what I meant. So yes, you can't say a person "kafar 3ala al baa6il".

[Variable]

Well I guess I'm going to hell.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Variable

Well I guess I'm going to hell.

Yes, but so may many of us. Unlike Christian hell, Muslim hell does not necessarily last forever. You could eventually wind up in heaven, you never know. It's the uncertainty of it which should make you strive to overcome your nafs and be a better person. If you believe that you are guaranteed heaven simply for taking shahada or being born Muslim, what's to stop you for being a horrible corrupt sinful person?

[Variable]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Yes, but so may many of us. Unlike Christian hell, Muslim hell does not necessarily last forever. You could eventually wind up in heaven, you never know.

The way I had read this is that if your Christian you go to the Christian Hell, and if you're Muslim you go to the Muslim Hell. If that's the case... I'm feeling rather liberated that I'm neither.

[shsh]

Originally Posted by Variable

The way I had read this is that if your Christian you go to the Christian Hell, and if you're Muslim you go to the Muslim Hell. If that's the case... I'm feeling rather liberated that I'm neither.

lol...yeah...i kinda read it like that too...

muslim hell...woot.

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

If you believe that you are guaranteed heaven simply for taking shahada or being born Muslim, what's to stop you for being a horrible corrupt sinful person?

Shahada.