More fighting in Pakistan

[LEGALEAGLE]

Pakistan troops withdraw from Taliban stronghold

After days of heavy fighting, and with eight soldiers dead, the army stops the campaign in Bajaur. Fighting also erupts in nearby North-West Frontier Province.
By Zulfiqar Ali and Laura King, Special to The Times

August 10, 2008

PESHAWAR, PAKISTAN -- Pakistani security forces pulled out of a Taliban stronghold near the border with Afghanistan after three days of fierce fighting that left at least eight troops dead and dozens missing, local and military officials said Saturday.

The confrontation came against a backdrop of renewed political turmoil in Pakistan. The government announced Thursday that it would seek to impeach President Pervez Musharraf, who first came to power in a military coup. Parliament is scheduled to convene Monday, but the impeachment process against Musharraf, a longtime U.S. ally, could take weeks.

The fighting in the tribal region of Bajaur was the most serious combat of its kind in the area, with government forces using tanks, fighter jets and attack helicopters to try to subdue the militants. Local sources said the insurgents had captured at least two armored vehicles and large caches of ammunition.

The confrontation took place outside Khar, the main regional town in the Bajaur region. Witnesses said the area was littered with bodies and burned vehicles.

Pakistani authorities said they believed the militants had suffered heavy casualties, but did not provide an estimate.

A spokesman for Pakistan's Taliban movement said that as many as 100 Pakistani paramilitary troops had been killed and about three dozen captured. Pakistani officials acknowledged that 55 troops were missing.

The fighting erupted four days ago when security forces moved into the area. At one point, about 200 soldiers were surrounded by the militants and cut off from their supply lines.

At the same time, insurgents in the Swat Valley, about 100 miles north of the capital, Islamabad, targeted security forces in an adjacent district. Swat lies outside the tribal areas, in North-West Frontier Province, but has seen on-and-off fighting for months, despite a truce in May between the government and a local militant commander.

Insurgents stormed a police post late Friday in the Buner district, bordering Swat, and killed eight police officers. Dozens of militants reportedly took part in the attack, some approaching the police post disguised as women in all-enveloping burkas.

laura.king@latimes.com

Special correspondent Ali reported from Peshawar and staff writer King from Kandahar, Afghanistan.

Pakistan fighting ends as troops withdraw - Los Angeles Times

[wheelworks]

It's almost ramadan and they're still fighting?

[ChotooMotoo]

Is this the same operation as:

Bajaur operation: 100 militants, 9 security forces personnel killed

Bajaur operation: 100 militants, 9 security forces personnel killed

Updated at: 2050 PST, Sunday, August 10, 2008

BAJAUR AGENCY: Security forces bombed dozens of militant hideouts in Bajaur Agency near the Afghan border on Sunday, officials said, amid reports that days of clashes have killed at least 100 militants and nine paramilitary troops.

According to sources, two spells of aerial bombing destroyed militants’ hideouts in several villages. Sources said bombs also struck a school occupied by Taliban fighters in Loi Sam, a village that has been a key focus of the fighting and Banda area.

Meanwhile, military jets and helicopters dropped bombs and shells, apparently on suspected Taliban positions.

A paramilitary Frontier Corps statement said nine troops and at least 100 militants were killed in the last four days. Maulvi Umar, a Pakistani Taliban spokesman, claimed the militants had handed over 22 bodies belonging to security forces in the last three days after pleas from tribal elders.

Then there is this:

Peshawarites brave second sleepless night without light

Peshawarites brave second sleepless night without light

Sunday, August 10, 2008
Javed Aziz Khan

PESHAWAR: Entire Peshawar remained dark for the second consecutive day Saturday while construction work on the blown up pylon in Safen Chowk continued to restore supply.

Security forces, on the other hand, also stayed alert in Matani to counter any further untoward incident. Similarly, the northern parts of the city also underwent a 12-hour power breakdown as the power supply through Daudzai and Gulbela feeders remained suspended after trees fell on the supply line during the late night windstorm and rain. The Pesco staff could only restore power supply to the area in the afternoon.

A large number of engineers and technicians were busy in fixing the tower No-331 of the 500 Sheikh Mohammadi grid-station, razed to the ground by unidentified terrorists on the night between Thursday and Friday. The authorities, however, are of the view that construction work may continue for a week or so. Most of the areas of the provincial capital remained in the dark for 19 hours throughout the Saturday as power supply used to be restored for one hour after every four hours of breakdown.

The situation forced almost three million Peshawarites and over two million others in Nowshera, Kohat, Bannu, Khyber Agency and surrounding areas to spend sleepless nights without fans, lights and in many areas without water for the second straight day. Most of the units in the Industrial Estate remained closed due to the power suspension.

The entire population of the district was unanimous that this was the worst form of terrorism. They were demanding proper action against the terrorists involved in the attack.

Interestingly, the tower that was blown up by the miscreants is located a few kilometers away from the Safen police post of the troubled Badaber police station. This was for the second time since May that the pylon was blown up.

Peshawar had witnessed the worst power crisis in last May and the Friday power suspension following the blowing up the tower remained to be the longest one during the current year.

Badaber and Matani are the areas have been the hotspot for the past many days and police as well as personnel of the Frontier Corps and Frontier Constabulary have been on the red alert to cope with any untoward events. During skirmishes between security forces and criminals in Matani, Badaber and Adezai during the past four days, two policemen have been killed and some six others wounded.

It's kind of a sensational headline though. Power outages are pretty common.

[Jamroll]

This is not good. If the Taliban's influence has reached has far as Peshawar it means they've started hitting Pakistan proper, as opposed to the semi-autonomous tribal regions.

[Jamroll]

wheelworks said

It's almost ramadan and they're still fighting?

Remember the U.S. waited until Ramadhan to attack Iraq? Also during the Soviet-Afghan war, the Soviets would attack hardest during Ramadhan to try and take advantage of a "weakened" enemy. Bad move. Mujahideen fight hard all year round, even in Ramadhan. In fact, some would say they fight harder in Ramadhan because being made a shaheed during Ramadhan carries its own blessings.

[wheelworks]

Jamroll said

Remember the U.S. waited until Ramadhan to attack Iraq? Also during the Soviet-Afghan war, the Soviets would attack hardest during Ramadhan to try and take advantage of a "weakened" enemy. Bad move. Mujahideen fight hard all year round, even in Ramadhan. In fact, some would say they fight harder in Ramadhan because being made a shaheed during Ramadhan carries its own blessings.

I meant Muslims fighting Muslims...

[jinnzaman]

Jamroll said

This is not good. If the Taliban's influence has reached has far as Peshawar it means they've started hitting Pakistan proper, as opposed to the semi-autonomous tribal regions.

I doubt they can take over the entire country. What's more likely is state collapse. The country would probably be divided into competing regional powers centered along linguistic lines. I doubt that their forces will make it out of NWFP. The weaker the government/military is perceived, the stronger separatist movements will become in Balochistan and Sindh. Anything is possible.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Jamroll said

Remember the U.S. waited until Ramadhan to attack Iraq? Also during the Soviet-Afghan war, the Soviets would attack hardest during Ramadhan to try and take advantage of a "weakened" enemy. Bad move. Mujahideen fight hard all year round, even in Ramadhan. In fact, some would say they fight harder in Ramadhan because being made a shaheed during Ramadhan carries its own blessings.

Gilani has nothing in common with the majority of Pakistani's and he knows nothing about Pakhtuns/Pathans or even western Punjab.

[navid]

LEGALEAGLE said

Gilani has nothing in common with the majority of Pakistani's and he knows nothing about Pakhtuns/Pathans or even western Punjab.

Mate, if you love the Taliban so much, why aren't you out there fighting instead of being an armchair general in England?

[MossadConspiracy]

Jamroll said

This is not good. If the Taliban's influence has reached has far as Peshawar it means they've started hitting Pakistan proper, as opposed to the semi-autonomous tribal regions.

salam

in your opinion do you think the Taliban are capable of causing widespread chaos in Pakistan in an all out war with the government or can the army annhilate them if it goes after them full force?

also, how likely is an all out battle? To an outsider like me, it seems pretty unlikely

ws

[roberto]

navid said

Mate, if you love the Taliban so much, why aren't you out there fighting instead of being an armchair general in England?

Who's going to make the tea?

[Jamroll]

MossadConspiracy said

salam

in your opinion do you think the Taliban are capable of causing widespread chaos in Pakistan in an all out war with the government or can the army annhilate them if it goes after them full force?

also, how likely is an all out battle? To an outsider like me, it seems pretty unlikely

ws

The army can annihilate them in Pakistan proper. If they remain in their tribal areas, then it's a different story. There is a narrow region all along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan which is known as the semi-autonomous tribal areas. Theoretically, it is part of Pakistan's sovereign territory, but it is more like a no-man's land between Pakistan and Afghanistan. They have their own way of doing things, and there is a general agreement between the tribal areas and Islamabad that as long as they don't cause any trouble, Islamabad will stay out of their affairs. That state of affairs has existed since Pakistan's conception, and up until now it has worked well.

Add to the mix, that most of the Pakistani troops don't have the stomach to fight the people in the tribal areas. There is the whole "they are harsh warrior people, with a warrior way of life" angle, but more than that is that Pakistani troops don't want to fight their own people (Muslim brothers and all that stuff). On several cases before, Pakistani troops have been extremely reluctant to fight the tribal people, because at the end of the day, they (the tribal people) are Pakistani, and they generally feel that they don't really have a problem with them.

I know you might think I always say this, but if the Americans were to leave, and let the people of the region handle the situation, I feel things would return to the equilibrium that existed before.

[MossadConspiracy]

Jamroll said

The army can annihilate them in Pakistan proper. If they remain in their tribal areas, then it's a different story. There is a narrow region all along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan which is known as the semi-autonomous tribal areas. Theoretically, it is part of Pakistan's sovereign territory, but it is more like a no-man's land between Pakistan and Afghanistan. They have their own way of doing things, and there is a general agreement between the tribal areas and Islamabad that as long as they don't cause any trouble, Islamabad will stay out of their affairs. That state of affairs has existed since Pakistan's conception, and up until now it has worked well.

Add to the mix, that most of the Pakistani troops don't have the stomach to fight the people in the tribal areas. There is the whole "they are harsh warrior people, with a warrior way of life" angle, but more than that is that Pakistani troops don't want to fight their own people (Muslim brothers and all that stuff). On several cases before, Pakistani troops have been extremely reluctant to fight the tribal people, because at the end of the day, they (the tribal people) are Pakistani, and they generally feel that they don't really have a problem with them.

I know you might think I always say this, but if the Americans were to leave, and let the people of the region handle the situation, I feel things would return to the equilibrium that existed before.

Salam

I guess what i'm asking is if they dont behave themselves and the government of the country attacks them, do you think they would destroy them? Or could they bring down Pakistan the way they did to the USSR?

Also, in your opinion do you think the conflicts between the government and the Taliban and other elements in that part of the country (caused and/or exacerbated by America, Al-Qaeda Arabs or whoever else) are likely to lead to a situation where theres all out war??

I'm sure you're right that if there was no US presence in the region things would be more calm because thats the root of the conflict between the pakistani government and the taliban

ws

[LEGALEAGLE]

Jamroll said

The army can annihilate them in Pakistan proper.

I'm sorry what do you mean by Pakistan 'proper' ?

If they remain in their tribal areas, then it's a different story. There is a narrow region all along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan which is known as the semi-autonomous tribal areas. Theoretically, it is part of Pakistan's sovereign territory, but it is more like a no-man's land between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It is a man's land. You might not regard it as your land but it's certainly a place where people live not a war-zone.

They have their own way of doing things, and there is a general agreement between the tribal areas and Islamabad that as long as they don't cause any trouble, Islamabad will stay out of their affairs. That state of affairs has existed since Pakistan's conception, and up until now it has worked well.

The way of doing things broke down when Musharaf and his cronies slaughtered women and children in the Lal Masjid.

This no longer involves just the tribal areas. It has spread to the majority of the Pakhtun/Pathan areas.

Add to the mix, that most of the Pakistani troops don't have the stomach to fight the people in the tribal areas. There is the whole "they are harsh warrior people, with a warrior way of life" angle, but more than that is that Pakistani troops don't want to fight their own people (Muslim brothers and all that stuff). On several cases before, Pakistani troops have been extremely reluctant to fight the tribal people, because at the end of the day, they (the tribal people) are Pakistani, and they generally feel that they don't really have a problem with them.

I know you might think I always say this, but if the Americans were to leave, and let the people of the region handle the situation, I feel things would return to the equilibrium that existed before.

That's not the whole story. The middle-ranks of the army feel that the leadership are a bunch of cowards and traitors. They don't want a repeat of Bangladesh.

[Jamroll]

MossadConspiracy said

Salam

I guess what i'm asking is if they dont behave themselves and the government of the country attacks them, do you think they would destroy them? Or could they bring down Pakistan the way they did to the USSR?

Also, in your opinion do you think the conflicts between the government and the Taliban and other elements in that part of the country (caused and/or exacerbated by America, Al-Qaeda Arabs or whoever else) are likely to lead to a situation where theres all out war??

I'm sure you're right that if there was no US presence in the region things would be more calm because thats the root of the conflict between the pakistani government and the taliban

ws

I think if the Pakistani government take too extreme an approach on this Taliban issue, it has the potential to seriously destabilise Pakistan - the worst case scenario being a region which splits off from Pakistan and declares itself an independent state. Of course, such a small region surrounded by hostile bigger powers will struggle to function properly as a state, but it can make life very difficult for the Pakistani government. This is why you always hear about the US government getting annoyed about Pakistan making peace deals with the Taliban. It's the only way to do it. They have to have some sort of arrangement with the Taliban or whoever is the dominant force in that tribal region for any semblance of normality to exist.

The only way I see of removing the Taliban as the big dogs on campus is if another group of Pashtuns form a force with wide-spread support and engage the Taliban. Then you could see the Taliban either being weakened, destroyed or marginalised. Of course, if this happened you would also find that the majority of people who used to be Taliban will pledge allegiance to this new force, and became their fighters. And so the fight will continue. The only way is to work out a treaty with the majority in that region, then the fringe element nutters starved of popular support will either pack up and go home or will get slapped up by whoever the new leadership is.

Annihilation or all-out war (by the Pakistani Army) is not the way to do it.